We are live!
Please share the link as far and wide as you can:
https://igg.me/at/theendlessforest
Feel free to use the image above, or make your own.
Do let us know any comments or suggestions! This campaign runs over 30 days, so there's plenty of time to tweak and add.
PS: we're still accepting video, audio & text (see previous post)
Update 1 (2 November)
Update 2 (15 November)
Update 3 (18 November): 3D prints!
Update 4 (21 November): new perks!
Update 5: Lina!
Update 6: Campaign extended to
27 December!
Update 7: tin deer WIP
Update 8 (14 December): statistics
oh man imagine if you could
smol zombie figurine yes please^ I imagine it wouldn't be
Just a few words from a
I agree with Mahj concerning the words about the wrong time etc. But what bugs me most are the sets as a reward. Or the rewards in general. In one post you said some sets should remain special and yet you sell some after several years simply for money.
I fear that the community will soon be devided into two groups: people who have money and people who don't. Because who says that there won't be more rewards for money? And here I am, wanting the same right for everyone. Even for the member who joins in years and never had the chance to donate during this phase to get the set they would love to have to express their character.
I understand that offering a rare set will probably bring more money but it's just not fair to those that don't have money and helped simply through spreading words. But don't get me wrong, if anyone can reach this 40k goal it's this community. Artists demand way less money than they actually should earn and deserve, to keep this forest alive and push it forward. How do the people get rewarded that help in their own way? Those that post it on facebook and talk with youtubers etc. All the ideas that don't include money. Everyone that helps in their own way should be in the 'new credits' not just people who have money.
We stood by your side throughout the years. We walked on the path and we visited the graveyard, helped you on steam with the green light.. we did many many things and always encouraged you to do more. And you knew we were there because you kept asking for more. And we kept donating and helping although you were and are clearly lacking tranparency.
Didn't we prove our loyalty enough? You said you want some sets to remain special. How awesome would it be if everyone could have it. No matter how much money someone spend because everyone helped as much as they could. And new members would hear the story behind the new sets where the whole community helped to keep the forest alive. Wouldn't that make it special?
I rarely speak up in this community but this time I felt the need to do so. TEF was always a place where you could return after years and continue where you left. A place where everyone has the same worth and the same chances to express themselves.
I gotta agree there (and with
Personally, and this is just my two cents about the whole pelt donation perks, I kind of wish it had been set up in a milestone sort of way? That way everyone can enjoy them rather than getting this divide between players who can and do donate, and those that are unable for whatever reason (and then yeah I didnt think about future new players just completely missing out on it too)
I MEAN I understand you can't set up all the rewards this way, otherwise what's the point for the people donating x amount of money for that tier if everyone will get the thing? (I think Saurian's kickstarter had something like...milestones as well as donator tier rewards for x amounts)
I've Donated 300 euros and I
Why? Because I don't care about rewards. I just want to see the forest remade for everyone. For people like me, who have been here almost ten years, this place has been part of our lives as we've grown up.
I've Donated to every Tale of Tales project I could. I send monthly donations of €100 to help keep the Forest alive.
Because it makes me feel like I'm doing some good. Does it really matter about what you get in return if the outcome is having everyone benefit from something?
The rewards are there to give
Maybe to some it would be considered unfair, but you have to think about the realities of that statement, of the word alone: not everything is fair. This outlook wouldn't be the first time people have felt that way about this sort of thing, and it won't be the last. If you can hop on the ball, then do it. But if you can't, maybe you'll get lucky and there'll be a next time. And even if there isn't a next time, are you going to drop a game, one that has you as entertained or enlightened as this one is, entirely because you didn't get the set piece that you wanted? Maybe, maybe not. But if you really enjoyed it, I don't think you would. In any case, it just keeps going on. Granted, you know, if it has the capability to.
On another note, I agree with quite a lot of what Mahj and Evern have said concerning a few key points. Mostly when it comes to how our money is being handled and if it is being handled in the best of ways when it comes to this project. I could quote and pin point, but others have done that for me.
IN THE END, HOWEVER, if we do manage, through a longer process via Paypal or some other donation site, to make the next game happen, which will only happen because of the influence of money, then it could just be worth missing out on one or two sets. Especially compared to the many that may come with the new expansion.
I think allowing everyone to
It might be a little late to change that though...?
The rewards are there to give
I have to agree with Vu here, though I value other people's opinions too. The idea of everyone getting the same and being rewarded just for spreading the word is great, buuut it's not how the world works. TEF is already an incredibly equalling game. If you look at WoW for instance- another MMO- there is loads of stigma about what mount you have, what level you are, how rare your stuff is etc. And how do you get that cool stuff? You pay.
TEF has already broken down so many standards of MMOs in this regard. It's hard to escape the fact that there WILL be special sets. There WILL be sets that some people have and some don't. That's reality. And if some people having special sets is what will help us reach this goal, then so be it. I have no issues with that. I wasn't going to donate 100 euro, but now I might. I'm glad the special sets are here because if they weren't then we might not make all the money that's needed.
I would love to see a shared set being given to the community, though I'm sure that if a goal is reached there will be loads new sets anyways. Also, there is a tin deer set for less money too.
Also Verd, thank you for donating so much money to the cause.
Hmmmm maybe if they can they
^^^ I agree that something
Who knows? Maybe something will be added. We're all kind of sitting on a clock waiting for it to chime, here.
Always rooting for new sets to be added.
Quote:Maybe to some it would
^^^ Pretty much agree with everything Vurufu said.
It's not 'simply' for money, though — assuming we scrounge up enough donations, we'll ALL benefit from new TEF content. That means (possibly) getting new sets that we can all enjoy.
So let's not act like only the people who donated $100+ get something out of this. :s
Agreeing with Verd here,
I think a new or released previously-exclusive set would be a great stretch goal (or "hey, we made it!" reward), though.
They are releasing the Sun Deer set if the goal is met, so there's that if we get there~
Edit:
I'm also wondering... if this goes to an extended private campaign, 40k divided over 12 months (since the expected working time was 12-18 months) is around 3,300 per month... Would M&A be willing/is it feasible to start work with the 3+ month jump start we have via Indigogo, and can we commit to the community scrounging the remaining 30k over 10 months or so? With 200 backers donating every month, that's a little over 16 euros per person per month. That's what, two or three cups at Starbucks?
I guess in short I'm wondering if the option to start work on the new engine without reaching the full goal in the next 11 days is close to being obtainable, or if it would need to be closer to 50% or more.
Or, even shorter, are we trying to throw in the towel too early when we should be redoubling efforts to put out the word because we're almost at a 'checkpoint'?
^The Sun Deer set looks
I'm also wondering... if this
I'd love this.
No really I get your point
Just thought I would share my thoughts too. Since I am playing other games too where I see exactly such effects.
I agree with what Verdalas
Remember donating should not be all about the material reward you are going to get out of it. Sure it gives certain people the incentive to donate, but it is mostly for the sake of feeling as if you are contributing to something good, and isn't that enough?
10 years later, and M&A are still coming back to this game with ideas on how to improve it for all of us players. I think that says a lot. They love what they have created, and would love to build on it. Take a moment to be thankful that we have this community and our game as it is.
Popping in to reiterate
Quote:Verdalas - I've Donated
With all due respect, all of us adore TEF and would absolutely love to see it expand and develop so everyone can continue to enjoy it, there's not one doubt about that.
But I'm one of those people who simply cannot afford to throw 100 euros at anything just for the goodness of my heart, no matter how much I love the game. It doesn't make me or anyone selfish if we'd like to get what we were promised for our donations. Doesn't make us selfish for wanting to have the exclusive sets.
To me the biggest issue currently is this. To my knowledge (?) it wasn't stated anywhere beforehand that if we didn't reach the 40k goal, we might not get some of the perks promised to us for the amount that we donate. I'm not familiar with Indiegogo and how the perks work, so I made the assumption that we would get the rewards regardless of us reaching the 40k goal or not. Since, you know, the perks are listed right there below the sums. 'Pay this sum, and you'll get this.'
I know I wouldn't have donated 100 euros at once if I've had doubts that I might not be getting the reward for it, because it's a lot of money. And now that I've read about it days after making the donation, it does leave me feeling a bit scared and frankly just plain angry, too. Is it really that selfish to expect to get what you thought you'd get for your money? Again, loving something a lot doesn't necessarily make anyone able to afford to hand away their funds.
I may have needed my 100€ for living and hospital bills, but decided to send it towards TEF instead in hopes that it would get remade, but also because I wanted something extra special on top of that, which is the valentine set. And I don't think there's anything wrong or selfish about that. And people feeling uncomfortable and doubtful because suddenly M&A can't promise us all of the rewards - I don't see anything wrong in that, either.
And like helel said, what would make me feel so much better is if we'd get some kind of trustworthy info about whether or not we are going to get something. I'd like to hear that I'm indeed going to be given something for my donation, even if we wouldn't reach the 40 000€ goal. Otherwise I'm going to feel a little robbed. Selfish me.
To those stirring pot about
You're pitching this as fair while it's simply about you being selfish this time and wanting freebies.
It's like that good old 'artist should draw for me for free, because it's just making
pretty pictures, it's not a real job' argument.
Well, jobs make money. You're invalidating other people's money here.
And those who struggle with donating rn would understand its value, yeah?
You don't know who's sacrificing what to bring this game to life again.
There are people not doing it for the rewards anymore and just for feeling the pressing need to throw
more money in, because if they don't, who else will. You?
[The other day you backed out of donating just because hitting the goal seemed implausible to you. And some wanted refunds]
The donors are doing it for you, too.
So we all get the game, improved, expanded, free.
And you want to take their promised rewards from them? You calling it fair now?
There are people new to this game and yes they came and paid bc of having interest in the perks.
Do they deserve to be met with disdain when they come here and try their sets?
For what, making your dreams possible?
It was M&A's decision to keep the Valentine exclusive to themselves. Hackers disrespected it before.
It is M&A's decision now to share their exclusive Valentine with those who gave up enough money.
They're the anti-commercial rebel artists here and they find it fair.
They're not here to please you. They're here because they've got passion for this project.
The passion is what we may all share. Don't go and abuse it. Or M&A's trust in you.
Now, to those who think we won't make it,
Take a step back from your writing walls of bickering, doubts and panic and put that time
into spreading the word, repost, make original posts on the game/art/theatre forums, make a banner
for tef indiegog and wear it on the internet sites you frequent, get out of your shell,
invent your ways to draw attention to the cause.
Look at the game now and see the influx of faces, old and new. Welcome them, include them.
Give them the time of your day. This is how M&A envisioned it to be. This is what you can do now to save it.
^ Uit is right. We need to
We need to all stop being so dang divided and instead make a valiant effort to get this new game going - the game we've all been hoping, wishing, dreaming about for years. Let's do this thing, eh?
Uitleger, I might have
It's hard for me to define Tale of Tales as 'anti-commercial' when they ask for money and enter into a formal, financial exchange such as this. The rules of good business apply when purchases are made, which is what the tier rewards are in addition to incentives; they are digital goods exchanged for money. I understand that some people purchased reward tiers with no desire or expectation to get those rewards, beyond knowing they have supported the game and that's fantastic. I'm sure that sort of 'strings-free' patronage is what Tale of Tales wishes it could rely on 100%. However, the players feeling cheated are justified and have the right to be disappointed if it turns out they get nothing from their purchase of the advertised reward tiers.
Passion as an artist is commendable but it doesn't excuse someone from the fallout of poorly handled business and finances. I'm a small, passionate artist running my own independent business and if I took money from clients and then, a few weeks later told them they might not get what they purchased? My reputation and relationship with those clients would be ruined, and it would be my own doing. Being an artist, rebel or otherwise, doesn't instantly mean getting a free pass when you make a business oriented mistake; especially where other peoples money is concerned.
I’m personally waiting to hear from M&A to clear this up before I judge Tale of Tales too harshly, and that’s I think what a lot of the concerned players would like too; Just some clarification. That being said, it gets my hackles up a bit to hear these concerned players get called greedy or selfish; they bought something from a business and expecting to receive it isn’t wrong.
Crowdfunding isn't a shop.
Verdalas I understand
If the tiers were never guaranteed then why didn't the Valentine-reward tier descriptions state "If we reach our goal your deer will be able to wear X set in the new game". That sort of clarity from the get-go would have prevented people buying in under false assumptions. The way the campaign is worded makes it seem like these reward tiers will be delivered if backed. If that isn't the case, Tale of Tales might have mis-represented themselves and should consider updating the campaign descriptions so that other backers don't 'buy in' under those same misinformed assumptions.
Like I said though, I'm waiting to hear from Tale of Tales definitively as to if they will be delivering on the Valentine set in the existing engine before I cement my opinion.
Terabetha, Yes, it was
Yes, it was misunderstood. Can't edit my post now, so I'm gonna clarify it here for the others, as well-
I aimed the whole first part at those who proposed to take the special sets out
of the reward tiers and make them available to the public.
So, the consequent points I make are in fact supporting those who expect to get their rewards,
not the opposite.
The 'anti-commercial' part I used was solely due to the nature of their project, as in,
M&A want to keep it free for everyone, unlike the pay-to-play mmos.
My point there, the game may be free, but it takes money to put it back on its feet, therefore
I see nothing unfair about those who donated extra getting something special out of it.
The way M&A set the perks is fine by me.
Now, onto your subject, I agree with you in part and in part I don't.
Because people must take responsibility for handling their own money and do research/ask
questions before committing to a project.
It is in the rules and it's been common knowledge that the perks are delivered only if the
crowdfund reaches its goal, that's how it works on Kickstarter, as well.
[ Don't hit reply on this comment, I gotta dig up a quote from the terms of use and place it here ]
I'd like to mention that it's
No one ever has entire knowledge of where and how their money is used in kickstarters or whether they will recieve what they ask for. If the money is needed for your living, please keep it. But it's not M&A's job to put the perks above raising money for their game. If they do, which I'm certain they will, it's just a bonus for us and not something we should take for granted. They're not running a shop here, they are funding a videogame.
As Uit says, let's not abuse M&A's trust in us.
Uitleger: Apologies and
I'm interested to read the rules you'll cite since I'm not intimately familiar with the format for the ToT campaign and would love to learn more. All the kick-starters and crowd funding I've been a part of (including one successful video game project) have all been clearly worded in regards to how the rewards or stretch goals pan out OR have issued refunds if the full goal is not raised within the time limit. I find the flexible funding a bit unnerving but understand why ToT made that format choice. I think maybe that part is what is making me unsure; not knowing what the partially raised funds (if we don't fully fund that is) will result in.
Evern:
"If I was to ask someone to find me a kickstarter where they are certain about exactly where their money goes, I'd be surprised if I got a reply."
^ All the crowd sourcing I've participated in has left me with no doubt in what my money was going towards. That being said, I know not everyone who backs projects has my expectations and there are people who wouldn't be bothered by the chance of not getting any return on that investment. I'm just not one of those people.
General: I'm realizing that maybe my stance on this might be derailing some of the momentum from the campaign so I'm going to stop commenting about it here and help get back to drumming up more interest for the game. Hopefully we'll end the campaign on a strong enough note to give the ToT team a solid income so they can focus on whatever new content they end up incorporating. I'm looking forward to helping the Community raise more funding through the extended paypal donations, once I'm able to do so.
All the crowd sourcing I've
I think I worded myself badly, I meant more about the perks- I know M&A have stated clearly that the money will go to TEF in some shape or form, no doubt about it. So yeah sorry about that!
From the main page of the kickstarter-
"If we would not reach the goal, we will do our best with what we have, maybe start over with a modest first phase and let the current game run alongside it. And if we are really far under, we will add some new content that the current engine can still handle and the rest goes towards keeping the server up and running.
Remaking The Endless Forest will potentially create access to other types of funding. The local art grants organization that has funded a big chunk of the game as it is, the Flanders Audiovisual Fund, cannot support a remake but they have expressed interest in an expansion of the game, which is only possible with a new engine. So supporting this campaign is an investment in the future of the project."
Quote:Terabetha - If the
That's why I was so unaware of how the things with the rewards go, honestly. I would have expected the TEF campaign page to say something about it at least.
Thanks Uit for clearing that up though. I didn't read any rules because like I said I expected it would've been stated somewhere less hidden. To me and some others it hasn't been 'common knowledge' at all, so you can see how it can be disappointing at this moment. Still, keeping my fingers crossed that there's gonna be a lot more donations during the days left of the campaign.
Turns out I was wrong, there.
...Ohoho, that's
It's really good to know that, so great! Thank you a bunch.
Sure, just don't you all go
I posted that for information's sake only.
I'm not going to at least,
What a discussion! Uitleger,
Uitleger, @There are people not doing it for the rewards anymore and just for feeling the pressing need to throw more money in, because if they don't, who else will. You?
[The other day you backed out of donating just because hitting the goal seemed implausible to you. And some wanted refunds@
@I aimed the whole first part at those who proposed to take the special sets out
of the reward tiers and make them available to the public.@
I really don't understand your statement. Many people who suggested before to use other rewards such as exclusive sets- this was just a suggestion from the creators for example to distribute information on different sites. There is only one purpose for all of this and it is to reach our final goal! I really don't understand your compelling enthusiasm to leave certain exclusive sets not available because in additional to those sets there will be others that won't be available as well. Many people in my opinion would want a different set for an assortment, but maybe yes- this is a bad idea, very radical aand however that's another question and everyone has their own opinion.
Why would you think that people will stop their donations if they think that the goal won't be reached on time? You can't know for sure how people will respond in such situation. I personally don't want to mention how much I have contributed, but I do want to say that didn't stop at 300. You can't judge how the person is going to act in this type of situation. Of course I agree with those who are waiting for Valentina set after the payment and I don't like to judge them because I was too late and everything was already said.
HB , I do not think what in your words -there is something criminal
Huskylove, That's not how it
That's not how it works in the real life.
One word for you:
Not doing anymore talk on this thread, I'm gonna put my time towards helping the crowdfunding.
Everyone,
Here's what I also found out:
Michaël Samyn, can this be done?
Oh man.. if that means we
I'm excited to hear about whether or not you two (Michael and Auriea) would be able to contact them and see if this is an option. Keep us updated! ♥
One month, as 60 days is the
OH, alright, I must've
If it was extended, I'd
I think we might risk
If we remake the engine (that
If we would not reach our goal then we will either try to remake the game anyway with the risk that we won't be able to finish it (and so you wouldn't get the perks) or implement whatever we can (perks first) in the old engine.
As much as we would love to
Inspiring suggestion,
The Tin Deer is a NEW set
We have been running The
You are absolutely right that we should have consulted with the community regarding rewards. That was an unforgivable oversight. But it's a bit too late now, sadly.
Adding new sets to the game is easy enough to do and can be done outside of the engine (within limits). But making those sets exclusive to certain accounts is difficult and requires some risky engine changes. That's why it's tricky. But not impossible! So if we decide against remaking the game, this will almost certainly be added to the old engine.
I agree that it's risky to
That being said, I still love the old phase one forest where all deer looked the same and there was no deer magic. If we get to remake the game, I'll try to add a mode that hides all magic and makes all deer appear the same. I think that would be a wonderful thing to experience!
Thank you, Verdalas, you are
In case you missed the core
And yes, this includes new sets for everyone. And so much more beyond your imagination!
The entire purpose of remaking the engine now, is to be able to expand The Endless Forest A LOT in the coming years.
(once the game is remade, we will have access to other sources of funding for expansions)
I hope everything is clear
We have the best intentions for The Endless Forest. And we will do as much as possible for the game with the money you are donating. We're actually looking forward to this, after all these years. Thank you for enabling that!
But we believe we can still reach our goal. Let's focus on that first!
(No subject)
Thank you so much Michaël,