I for one I and perhaps many others that have contributed to the campaign may have hit their monetary limit. I feel the encouragement for an extension came with the hopes that the extension could stretch beyond just the communities reach...into other fields or audiences. A lot of us have been advertising, but it is not enough. Is there any other places you guys would feel comfortable advertising? I thought the youtube thing was a great idea, but if you guys are unwilling to do it due to a fear of "gamers" then that just shuts down one large avenue.

There are other people with money besides the TEFc!

I don't like feeling like I'm being blamed for the failure of the extension.

That aside, well done community.

I don't think we are being blamed, I think it's just good to remember that M&A have a lot more experience than the people who asked to extened the campaign, I being one of them. They were right that we would reach most of our peak in the first part.

Thank you Finland haha! ♥ And at least we reached 60%- there's still a bit to go and we could reach even further.

It's not a waste!! I haven't been able to contribute yet but I will before the campaign ends... I just recently got a job when the first campaign was going to end and I was ecstatic that it has been extended.

"I guess we just overestimated the size of the community."

Michael I'm curious, did you look at the number of registered accounts as indicating the size of the active community? Many players have multiple pictograms due to their play style, and not taking this into consideration might have led to that misunderstanding. Just something to take into account for the future if you hadn't already considered it.

It's definitely not a waste.

Remember, we are within the holiday month, and around this time is when people are scrambling to finish their shopping.

I anticipate another peak towards the end of the campaign, when shoppers are done with Christmas/Holiday gifts and can once again go back to donating.

Also, it's not a waste because people are still donating, even if it's a little. Never underestimate the little people.

OU.. I'm failing to see how it was a mistake?
There's been a gain of a few thousand euros ever since the extension. The community is tapped out- we're made up of primarily people in their mid 20s and to early teens from what I gain, and there's a really small amount of us.
The extension gave more opportunity for others to help us if only we could reach out to a wider audience, and even now we're scrambling to make money for the campaign by selling our art, pulling from funds meant for Christmas gifts for our families, ect.


It will always be for the community but we alone could have never, ever made this happen within a month. Continuous donations over a few years, sure, but we're way too small. Some of us don't have jobs aside from our own art.

This game is incredibly niche. But others may be interested in contributing even if not playing.
TEF has never been immune to the kind of people you fear coming here through advertising. The subject matter of the game doesn't support the overtly competitive response many other games would evoke, so there's that. But it doesn't mean the community is free of what you're unwilling welcome and even if swathes of those people in the EXTREME come in, they'll move on when they lose interest, and fast.

They won't stay if they don't like the function of the game but they may donate. I won't speak for anyone else, but I really implore you to swallow the fear and help us help you. The game and community are both beautiful things but I don't think it's realistic to think we can do this alone.

@Tuhka: High five for Finland!
Even though neither do I have any idea why Finland has that big part.

Wow.
I don't think this is really the place for that sort of thing.

I agree with helel. This is the perfect place to raise this issue.

Making an indiegogo campaign to raise money to a new phase - but openly admitting that the campaign was for the community is astounding and incredibly foolish.



You want to create a new game, but you want us to only pay for it? I would have thought you guys would have done everything possible to make this work.

This whole campaign has raised two predominant thoughts with me:

1)How much do you /actually/ need to remake the game? is this money to pay your rent whilst you make the game, pay living expenses during the creation?
2)Pay for professional guidance, support from Unreal tutors, resources, ect?

I feel that we should be told where this money is going.

Did you consider doing a demographic study of how many players had a sustainable income, still lived at home or were studying?

I don't even have a job anymore and I sit here biting my fingers wishing I could donate more, hoping that this fundraiser could make it with the extension and the rest of the internets help. Most of us did all we could, and what we did was tremendous, so we fought for an extension for the rest of the internet to get us over the line.

And you say you are reluctant?!

Madness.

eeeh I dunno I mean they did kinda blame the community for the extension idea being a flop?

Ah, I think it's actually a good thing to have some criticism comments in these posts...especially with how M&A handle it. They usually handle the aggressive posts with ease, and their responses usually calm most people's worried minds. At least it always chills me out.

Any who, I'm it'll all get sorted out soon enough. Hopefully just another miscommunication..

I don't really like the look of those tweets either, actually I think in a campaign there should be no discouraging any people at all, but I prefer Singa's calmer approach to the situation and I kindddaa agree with Amary that maybe it isn't the best time to turn our pitchforks at the people who have done all this for us, and clearly love the community to bits.

repeatedly fail to be transparent with them in terms of what that money will definitely be used for

"If we would not reach the goal, we will do our best with what we have, maybe start over with a modest first phase and let the current game run alongside it. And if we are really far under, we will add some new content that the current engine can still handle and the rest goes towards keeping the server up and running."

I want to address that I think we've always known where the money would go. It is on the indiegogo page which probably not a lot of people on TEF read now that I think about it. I don't know about others but this is what they said on the page and I trust them.

Going to chime in and say that I agree with helel, especially when I was the one recommending YouTube channels (among others, but I remember this distinctly) and I was specifically choosing ones that didn't have that 'hardcore' demographic. Unless everything other than TEF is hardcore now. I admittedly felt a little insulted that the game's potential progress was stunted by brushing these YouTubers away right off the bat. But that's a specific and personal qualm.

M&A, we care about this game. We respect you. But we've all seen now in a recently-shared Reddit thread and now from the community itself that the pretentious attitude is turning people away and it's losing money for it. Do you think the community here only plays TEF? We aren't all special snowflakes, and we don't need to be protected from anyone, aside from hackers. Even then, most of them are barely even a nuisance. I have played TEF since 2010, and in that time I've also played AAA titles like Red Dead Redemption, Skyrim, Overwatch, Resident Evil, and countless others. I like video games. I found TEF because I like video games first. I was 12 years old and I didn't, and honestly still don't, care about the high-art experimental nature of TEF. I cared that it was a game where I could be a deer and make a character that I loved. That is the demographic you are skipping over by trying to market this game to artistic elites, and that is the biggest demographic you have, whether you know it or not.

I guess the point I want to make is that it's not too late to reach out to those YouTubers. At this point, if you don't, I will. I want to see this game succeed despite the odds, and I do sort of hope to see an attitude change. As you've already seen, being so aggressively opposed to 'gamers' isn't exactly the best-received thing on an online forum about a video game.

Cheers.

Wow. Are you serious with those tweets M&A? What the f*** are you doing. I've always believed that TEF was a small, unpretentious and very welcoming game. Now, I've trust issues.

I'll not argue about all this, I'm a bad speaker and some TEFers are doing it very well.

But just one thing: you deluded yourself into believing the extension was a mistake.
There is nothing wrong about it. Kay we're doing it at the worst time of the year and it is a new month of stress, but nothing more.

I get it. You are art for arts sake kinda people and thats valid. You dont want to make "games" in the traditional sense, you want to make experiences, make people think. Dont all artists? At the crux of the issue, you are using an online game as a platform to create that art and poo-pooing the very people youve aligned with (whether you like or intend it or not) is a very, very bad business move.

And hey, since when was the arts an profitable occupation? But the sheer fact that you are asking for money and basically saying fuck you gamers doesnt work. Did you think It would work? Did you think we as a community could fund this alone?

I like many right now feel rather...frustrated. Betrayed.Those tweets were nothing short of disgusting. Be statement makers by all means, heck be the next Marina and Ulays of the "game" and new media world. I get it, and I think thats bloody awesome!

But when money is involved, and you are asking for it....

Its a different set of parameters and people have every right to have the attitudes they do.

I have always been huge supporters of you both and your work but reading those tweets on reddit and from helel. I am now mistrusting.

M&A.

This year we've seen a terrible rising of global hatred. Within politics, within communities.

And while there's been many dramas on TEF throughout the years: Trolls, out-of-bounds set hacking, personal drama between members, and many other things. This game and this community is the most remarkable I've ever known. We're relatively peaceful, as you, the makers, have advertised it to be. We've come such a long way and so much has changed throughout the decade, and given the chance I think it can only get better.
We may be a small community, and some of us have our odds, but we are so tight-knit and full of passion. It really is like a family. We have prevailed, and we are incredible.

You are the makers of this game, and everything you say and do will reflect on us as a community. Those tweets will represent us, too.
But those tweets do not represent our true feelings. Those tweets are not how we are. We can be so open-minded, and so accepting of people and the differences that come from it. We all come together and grow, as one people.

Over the last decade I've seen the line between games and art becoming more and more blurred. More often now I'm seeing games released as absolute masterpieces of art. Sure, they're not always done the same way as ToT, but you've made such an impact, and progress never happens overnight.
Your art is not rendered invalid by the gaming community. You made a difference, and that's remarkable. It's all one can ever really ask for in this world.

So please, learn to shed the bitterness. It's okay to feel hurt and disappointed if what you've worked so hard on doesn't work out as much as you hope. Your feelings are valid there. Wounds will heal, if you let it breathe.
Just please, don't add to all the hatred in the world.

We, as people, gamers and artists alike, are a community. So let's be good to one another.

It is still disrespectful , no matter what selling strategy it might be..

Hen is M&A, the bread is TEF.

I ain't seeing how getting triggered is gonna sell the game.
Yeah, the one thing left to do now is bash M&A for low profits and your frustration.
You've done your best promoting and donating to the campaign, I bet that makes you feel entitled to that.

You've got time to sit and type how offended you are, you should have time to spam some forums.
The reddit thing I shared
shows how many times, where and when the indiegog campaign link was posted on the site in total.
Since I done that, I haven't seen any of you try and make an account, get active on that site, then share the indiegog link on the respective [gamer, art, w/e] subs.
You'all got the time, right?
You went and used my cue to get yourself hurt with year old tweets instead.

Keep derailing this thread.
M&A praised this community: And this is what they're gonna come back to.

The one good thing I saw in the argument was some people reminding M&A about the mood of this game and to embrace all sorts of player crowd.
The rest, before staking the devs for their mistakes and their hateful tweets, take a good look in the mirror. This, ain't helping.

Eeeee communication needs to improve.
Can call it an innocent mistake- in the end, it's clear M&A don't know much about this community, just based off of what they've said about the gaming community itself. (missing the fact that we are the gaming community sobs) Among other things.
Being mistaken about the number of individuals here, the fact that hardcore gamers are part of this community, and seeeemingly? being entirely unaware that roleplay and the community itself just might have been a leading factor in this game's longevity.

I'm not saying they're shitty for it! They have other endeavors going on and definitely assumed TEF was a little simpler than it's turned out to be which is an easy impression to get when that was your intention making the game. But again, it's damaging, which is pretty easy to see here.

First person shoot 'em up games bring the ugly out of people sometimes, for sure. SADLY, money does worse, always has and always will. So no matter the outcome of this campaign, I think there needs to better communication between the player base and the creators, and not just when money is involved.
Think it could reeally help.
Maybe having some sort of pinned communication blog on the front page where we can voice thoughts (as emails are often unread or missed, or simply not responded to for whichever reason) would be mighty nifty.

-walks in-

-reads comments-

-slowly backs out-

Okay I didn't see the tweets helel posted before because the image was broken for whatever reason. And looking at what other people have posted... I can definitely see being upset about all that. I think you all have good points. But I still feel like if you're going to criticize something, it's better to try to stay away from making outright hostile comments or at least tone it down. People are less likely to listen to something if they feel like they're being attacked.

I do agree with a lot of what is being said. You are stereotyping people while overlooking--intentionally or not--that a large part of this community also belong to the same group that you're making these negative comments about. I can understand being too busy to have much involvement with the community. But you can't base everything you do on assumptions. I don't know much about business, but it seems to me that not knowing anything about your own user base is very short-sighted. If you really care about this community and this game, I think taking some time to learn more about us is worth whatever time it takes. You don't have to keep an eye on the community 24/7, but maybe just make an effort to pay a little more attention.

And if you're afraid of people bringing bad attitudes and whatever else to this community, first of all it's unrealistic to think everything can be peaceful all the time. This is a small community, but we still have had problems at times. I don't think it's "gamers" that cause problems, but rather just a part of literally any community, or any group of people. It's just more common in larger communities and more populous areas. But that's why they have rules and consequences for breaking them. It might be time to start thinking about actually implementing something like that, as much as you might not want to do it. We've already had issues that could have been solved more easily if there was some sort of policy in place.

I understand doing that would mean having to work on the community site, and that's part of why I think that the community site should be a higher priority. I can see not having it at the top of the list, but it shouldn't be so far down. Most TEF players use the community site to expand on their experience with the game. For many of us it's become an almost inseparable part of playing. We may be able to things like Skype or even other sites to do the same thing, but this site makes it much more convenient and a lot easier to keep in touch with people. It may not have been a part of the original idea, but for many of us it has become a very important part of the game. Just looking through all the character biographies and such should attest to that.

However I do believe we'll eventually get what's needed to remake the game and for a major overhaul of the community site. Even if we don't reach the goal of this campaign. In spite of everything, I still have faith in the community and in Tale of Tales and the game's creators.

This is going in circles. People on both sides have said what they needed to say, yes? Any more arguing beyond this point is null.

Little late to the party, but

@Ratt
"I really hope those tweets were fueled just by the bitterness because Apple threatened to remove Bientôt l'été from their store a few days earlier, and not because they feel the need to belittle the gaming community."

They've been displaying blatantly disrespectful behavior towards both the community and other developers for many, many years. This is about par for the course on their twitter. These opinions and this attitude are nothing new.