Introduction.
Everyone here is capable of having an open discussion.
It seems like something we might actually all enjoy and look forward to - but so far it hasn't been done correctly. We want to share our ideas. We want to get things off our chests. We want to write our opinions, be heard, contribute, and reciprocate with each other - and we can.
There's a certain way of approaching and introducing (sensitive) topics and ideas without the post being completely blown out of proportion (which we have all seen so many times already), but it needs to be done carefully.
I created this suggestions blog to generate an effective list to be used as a smart reference for future discussion posts, and hopefully minimize conflict and negative feedback for people wanting to discuss something in particular.
Phew, here we go:
Miscommunication is an issue.
It is possibly the
biggest issue on TEFc. Remember that
this is a world of text, so it's extremely important to clearly communicate the idea you are wanting to discuss.
- To receive effective feedback, an effective post is needed to carefully introduce the material you want to discuss.
- Remember: every individual that responds has had their own personal experiences, usually a foundation on which their perspective(s) developed.
- More.
- More.
Questions and ideas needing clarification.
- How to properly introduce an issue, idea, topic, etc., without seeming overly-opinionated, biased, offensive, etc.
- Should opinion be mentioned at all in the original body post or remain completely neutral?
- Discussion vs. Debate
- When does discussion become a debate?
- Does opinion alone trigger debate?
- How to avoid / diffuse escalating conflict.
- Suggestions on how to
- Should opinion be mentioned at all in the body post or remain completely neutral?
- Discussion versus debate?
- When does discussion become a debate?
- Does opinion alone trigger debate?
- How to avoid escalating conflict.
.: Just stopped by to say
I dont really know how much
- Suggesting the idea as introduction
- Implementing opinion in original body as effective formatting
- Following up with possible 1) supporting details as well as 2) reason for post
1) Inclined to be taken (more) seriously
2a) substance, body, core
2b) effective closing
[e]:
- Personal issues with specific people excluded, always, no exceptions
- Issue/idea/discussion must always address the community as a whole
Introducing subject,
Abstract character concepts foreign to the original TEF deer.
1.
/// Specific abstract character concepts, easing into sensitive topic:
// Opposing the original TEFdeer concept, narrowing down to specific examples:
/ Inclination to violence
/ Predatory behavior
/ Hybrids
- Vague, brief touch-up as well as specific word choice and sentence structure from a neutral stance prevents offensiveness while still making it clear what your topic is about.
- Completely open for discussion. Opinion hasn't been stated yet.
2.
Subject: Abstract character concepts foreign to the original TEF deer.
Specifics: Opposing the original TEFdeer concept, and narrowing further.
Opinion: I may or may not agree with these, and here is why:
1. Detail
2. Detail
3. Detail
Possibly balancing this with:
Though I may or may not agree with these concepts/
Though I may find them too abstract for the game/
Though I believe they are too far from the original core of the game/
whatever it may be/
etc./
I can appreciate the hard work and creativity put into them.
Perhaps this has been on my mind for a while. Though I do not have a problem with any of these character concepts and traits, I would like to shed some light on this subject as I believe it's very important to the original idea of the game, and also myself.
- Reduces players feeling of being targeted with this method (can this be improved?)
- Reduces players inclination to act defensively for their creations, more open to discussion, automatically reducing conflict
Important:
- Should the body post end here as it is, leaving the topic completely open to discussion on the subject with the opinion to be stated later in comments or,
- Should the opinion on foreign concepts be stated in body post?
I'm going to address the
Stepping in, take your heart off your sleeve. Emotions are squishy, personal preferences don't contribute, and both get in the way of exchanging ideas.
Keep it clean. A simple expression of approval of another's opinion brings nothing new to the pool, yet could be viewed as ganging up.
Important: Defensiveness has no place in a discussion. It has lead to shutting off and shutting up, a straight lose-lose.
On introducing an opinion or
I'm an extremely literal person. It is the only way that I can function in day to day society. I take everything I hear literally unless I have a very, very good reason to think that someone is lying or joking to me. It is one of the worst parts of autism but it has been in many ways helpful for me so I'll share that here.
On the internet, be totally literal. No one can hear the way you talk. Assume that no one knows how you talk. Don't exaggerate. Assume always that you are writing for a person with a malfunctioning brain like myself.
Phrase opinions as opinions. ie I like pizza. Don't say, "pizza is good" unless you are going to be able to prove to someone that pizza is good. That would be the most pointless conversation. But if you say something as an opinion, no one can argue it. Because it's an opinion. Seriously, try to tell someone they don't like pizza after they've just said they like pizza. Waste of time.
When introducing a topic I recommend subsections. People never read everything you have to say. Literally no one will read this entire post, for instance.
On discussion versus debate as words-
There's the common use of debate which is pretty much identical discussion, and then there's more formal debate like you see in debate clubs. Generally the only difference between the two words is how formal the situation is. e.g., the people in the cafeteria have discussions, congress has debates. BUT the common use of the words are pretty much the same. What we'd have here on forums would qualify for either discussion or debate.
I don't think that the difference between two words is very much an issue and getting concerned over etymology rarely helps an issue. If you're going to talk about something, talk about it openly, honestly, politely, and never worry how you're going to categorize talks.
People who say "don't turn this into a debate" are almost always people who are afraid of disagreement, even polite disagreement.
On conflict in general-
Conflict happens any time people are truly honest. I believe in the importance of being truly honest. People fight and it gets nasty. I've had it happen with me, because of me, and to me. I've been all kinds of wrong on the internet before and I've been all kinds of wrong in real life before. It's life.
I do not like trying to pretend that conflict doesn't happen. I do not like saying that it shouldn't happen, because it is part of the human experience. The important thing to learn is to be able to handle conflict well, and when everyone handles conflict well a strange thing happens: it stops happening altogether.
I know that sounds like a paradox. I don't know if people here have ever had panic attacks before but I have them very regularly and sometimes I've needed to be hospitalized because of them. You cannot fight a panic attack, though there are ways to bring it down. You have to treat it like a scared animal and you have to try to calm it down with gentleness and logic. Handling inter-personal conflict is for me a lot like a panic attack.
It happens in life. It's inescapable. But it doesn't last forever.
So at some point you have to plant your heels in and just learn how it works. Sometimes there is no right answer to the conflict, in which case you have to let it happen. Sometimes you're right (or think you're right when you're actually wrong), in which case you have to decide how important it is to be right and how hard you want to prove it. If you're wrong, you won't know it until the end. I'll talk about being wrong first since it's the hardest one to learn how to roll with.
Summary so far: Conflict happens, learn to minimize it until conflict is something that happens so minimally you don't notice it
I was characterized by a teacher as "often wrong but never unsure" when I was a teen, and that's pretty apt. The most important thing you can do when you find out that you're wrong is apologize as soon as you realize that you were wrong--When I've been wrong I've apologized (except to the girl I kicked in fifth grade--she had it coming because she threw a rock at a cat and despite what the teachers said I don't regret my actions that day). It's embarrassing to realize that you screwed up and caused a problem and you feel bad about it and those are BIG EMOTIONS. But you have to be apologetic when you are wrong or you will carry negative feelings.
Never stay mad at people you conflict with. It's just dumb. Even if someone annoys me or makes me mad, even if they make me cry, when the conflict is over I really don't care anymore. After you apologize to anyone you were in conflict with and admit your faults, you can have your catharsis. The conflict is generally over when an honest apology happens (unless the other side has a bad attitude). I say generally because there are exceptions in the real world that could involve courts and police.
Lastly, part of admitting being wrong is keeping your failures where people can see them. If you ever conflict with someone, I am a strong advocate for doing it honestly and openly. That way everyone can see what kind of person you really are. Even if you are wrong it is possible to handle conflict well and even if you are right it is possible to handle conflict poorly.
In summary: When you're wrong, be sorry, apologize, and don't be butthurt. NEVER hide evidence of how wrong you are and instead accept your failures on your path to becoming a better person by leaving them where all can see.
Bear in mind that if you have an opinion that is an opinion, you can never be wrong.
If you're right, on the other hand, just be right. Be polite to people who are wrong and try to correct them. Think of them like children who are doing their math problems incorrectly. Bring no emotion to the table and give only facts. Granted, people who are wrong rarely listen. I know I can be devastatingly hard headed and there are many times in my life that I wish I had listened to the polite people who had tried to put me on the right path.
If you're right, chances are you're fighting just as hard as the guy/gal who is wrong. That's because you both think you're right. The thing that will wear you out fastest is bringing emotion into things. I'm guilty of that, sometimes. It's devastating to the mind and body to disagree emotionally with someone, isn't it? I rarely experience emotions when I talk to people unless I actively try to empathize with them, but fights bring out the worst in people. When you see that worst-in-yourself rearing up to attack, calm it down. You don't need emotion ruining your conflict.
In summary: Don't be "that guy" when you're right and emotions will only make conflict worse.
I'm not saying that we should ignore "if you can't say something nice don't say anything at all" because that's a pretty solid rule that mostly exists to teach children not to say devastating things at funerals but it has some truth to it. What I'm saying is that if something bothers you severely and you are pretty sure that it's not okay, react constructively. I can't believe I wrote all these things no one read.
Conflict can be constructive. It is a way to learn you are wrong. It is a way to face your emotions and learn to master them. It is a way for you and everyone else to see what the person you are conflicting with is really like.
To be totally honest it's
While I don't want to speak for anybody I think that, as this is a community with a LOT of artists and artistic people, topics should just generally be approached with more caution and gentle wording. People shouldn't be afraid to voice their opinion, but there's a nice way and a not so nice way to say just about everything. I think, generally speaking, we as artists are somewhat more passionate than some other talent groups - being artists, we're in touch with our creative sides and often our emotions, moreso than other groups may be. It's something that comes from the heart and soul, and so are our characters, so when a certain type / aspect seems as though it may be getting attacked by someone, it's not a big surprise that people get hurt and offended. Sooo many times this comes from a simple wording error that might have been avoided if the author of the topic or comment looked over their reading before posting it, just to make sure it's worded kindly.
So.. dunno how to put this as a suggestion but tl;dr be gentle and kind with your wording and I think a lot of controversy could be avoided.
I must politely disagree that
I'm not a professional artist nor published author, but I've been writing and painting and inking most of my life and I've been showing it off to pretty much anyone who will read it. Being someone who is willing to show creativity requires you to take criticism well. In drawing from life for instance, sometimes you're just plain wrong and need to be helped. In writing, I need people to tell me when my wording is clunky or if I don't make sense.
It's important to not be defensive about art. Taking classes involving creative subjects, most professors I've had have been very harsh. And I know that it's in my best interest. If I wanted to become a professional artist and put paintings in museums or if I wanted to be a published author I know I would likely face many negative reviews and harsh judgements and flat out rejections of my work. There aren't many jobs with pressure that is so personal out there!
I've met pros and I know that there are several who are on this site. The few that I have come to know personally have thick skin and while they love their art I have never known them to overreact to anything, especially criticism. Then again, it could be that the ones I know are the total outliers of the situation.
Also, I don't think that hobby or vocation gives a person more of a right/reason to be defensive or to take offense and I think that you have unintentionally generalized many people. I know that you mean well! For instance, it would be generalizing and untrue if I made the inverse of your claim and suggested that that non-artists aren't very in touch with their emotions.
But! I agree completely with your note in your tl;dr that people should be gentle and kind too. I just do not believe that artists should be treated any differently from non-artists simply because of their hobby and or vocation.
.
I would like to add something
If you are going to post an opinion on something, do not use an anonymous account to do so. Use the account everyone knows is yours.
Sorry about any spelling
1-2) How to properly introduce an issue, idea, topic, etc., without seeming overly-opinionated, biased, offensive, etc. + Should opinion be mentioned at all in the original body post or remain completely neutral?
- Consider not stating your opinion in the blog introduction to the topic. You will obviously have one, and likely it is something you feel very strongly about if it has motivated you to make a discussion blog. Your introduction to the topic needs to be neutral. By making a discussion blog you are
- Supply accurate information about the topic you will discuss (if you are going to use examples of specific characters, jump down to my last paragraph and read about inviting individuals. It would be the polite thing to do to ask someone if they mind their choices being used as an example.). For example, if you were going to open a debate about hacking/glitching to acquire pelt spells, it would be good to explain the difference between a hack and a glitch, how glitches can be abused, which pelt spells you're talking about, and any past examples of ToT asking The Community not to do it.
3) Discussion vs. Debate
- A discussion is two or more individuals talking bout the various elements of a topic, with the goal of exploring that topic in depth, sharing their relation to the topic, talking about problems arising from that topic and working towards potential solutions.
- A debate is usually two or more people who hold opposing view points making arguments for their view point, with the goal of defending, or converting others to their way of thinking. Debates are usually more formal than discussions, and because they by definition include opposing views, are more likely to devolve into negative fighting.
*note that arguing with someone is not the same as making an argument. Making an argument means you are supporting your views with evidence, either personal experiences or from reputable sources.
4) When does discussion become a debate?
- Discussions can evolve into a debate once participating individuals have expressed their view points. If contrasting or opposing view exist, the topic can be debated in the above mentioned way. This is not necessarily a negative development, as long as those taking part understand that debates require less conversational/emotional language than discussions.
5) Does opinion alone trigger debate?
- It can, but I feel that a discussion is more useful where opinions are concerns as opinions are usually strongly influenced by personal biases. Personal biases can complicate debates, where as discussions are a great way for a group of people to share their differing opinions in a conversational way, which ideally leads to introspective questions: How did I develop this opinion? How can my opinions be problematic? Ect.
6) How to avoid / diffuse escalating conflict.
- This requires a neutral party. One upset person telling another upset person to calm down is going to come across as talking-down-to as opposed to a plea for calm. While a neutral party does not need to exist in discussions, they are in my mind a requirement for the debates as they help keep everyone on topic. The job of a neutral party in debate is to point out when any individual is making generalizations, un-supported claims, or needs to emotionally distance themselves to de-escalate a conflict.
Just something else to add:
The time at which a debate or discussion takes place is really important and something that people on TEFc need to understand. If a fight or interpersonal conflict has taken place recently, that is a bad time to expect people to be emotionally detached from that topic! As someone looking to create or host a debate you and everyone taking part need to be able to approach the topic level-headedly AND to be willing to accept criticisms.
The trend on TEFc of discussing community trends doesn't work. I more often than not leads to emotional outbursts and hurt feelings. I've been here a long time and have seen many of these threads; here's general points I've noticed:
- Individuals are not invited to a discussion/debate. For example, the only 'invitation' most TEFc Members receive is a blog criticizing something they have chosen to do. This leads to my next point.
- Criticizing the community as a whole (as in character who have _____ trait, or behave in ____ way) does not work here.
We keep telling ourselves that it is rude to 'name names'. I don't think this is the case anymore. If someone politely contacted me (before the debate thread is made), asking me if I would have the time/interest to participating in a debate on a topic I was involved with (Lets use the topic of using other cultures as inspiration as an example, as my character Queze is an Aztec despite myself having no relationship to that culture). This is WAY MORE APPEALING than finding a blog (or having to learn about it through a friend) with an already raging 'debate' about how cultural appropriation is a HUGE PROBLEM on TEFc and something needs to be done about it.
- By inviting people to participate, you are making sure that they are respected, and they have the chance to say no. It takes a mature person and a level of introspection to have a discussion/debate about characters or their/our actions. Everyone taking part needs to be willing to re-evaluate how they feel about the topic, and maybe accept the way they designed or played their character here on TEF wasn't the best choice. If you aren't open-minded you have no place in a discussion/debate. The goal of these talks is to help analyze why people, most importantly ourselves, make the choices we do, and to critically look at if these choices were the right ones to make. If you can't do that without personally attacking someone else, or you can't respond to criticisms in a mature way, you will not be conducive to a discussion/debating environment.
Also, not just for starting a
^ Agreeing for sure with what
Will reply to these when I
.
I must wholeheartedly agree
I have very harsh opinions about this. I feel personally insulted when someone won't communicate with me with their name on. It's like if I was out walking around and someone hurled an insult my way and then ran off. I'd be like, "What is wrong with that person? Why are they afraid of me?"
There is an Oscar Wilde quote: "Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth." It's true. People worry about how they are seen in the popular peacock contest of life and they don't want to say unpopular things because they're afraid they'll be set back. And it's true. But you have to speak up clearly and politely if you have strong feelings, even if you are afraid that people will hate you for your feelings, or else those emotions will eat you alive inside. Just be nice about it because attacking never helps anything.
I would like to add that I believe there's a corollary to hiding identity, which is hiding the conversation as a whole. I believe very, very strongly in airing grievances politely and honestly where the whole world can see (and on the internet I find it also improper to delete things due to shame of them). Even if people have nothing to say about an issue, it is best handled where all can review and judge it fairly for themselves. I generally do not believe that there is such a thing as "not his/her/their business" in a community--everyone's problems are everyone else's problems because we are a team.
Once, a several years ago when I was still a teen, I helped a friend fend off a guy who was quite a bit older than me who wanted money from my friend. Things weren't physical, but the man was kind of trying to threaten it. We got him to back off eventually but there was a brief moment where he and I were alone and he said some things that I find extremely haunting to this day that I will not relay here for younger audiences. He even later tried to deny saying those things and I am glad that people knew to believe me when I said what he'd said. He was just like someone who might say something awful on the internet and delete it later.
Even though I sometimes think back on that night, I can never be truly frightened of him because I know he was the most wretched of cowards. I always think back to that night whenever I see people hide evidence of things said.