let me preface this for transparency's sake: i am very much against the use of generative AI in creative spaces. largely because of the
environmental impact of
data centers, but also because i'm not interested in reading or looking at anything that wasn't actually created by a real person.
however, this is not a space to air your grievances about genAI or to talk about why it's bad. no matter how much i might agree with you, i don't want to shame people or make them feel bad here. not just because it's unkind but because shame isn't actually a good motivator for changing behaviour - it's a deterrent. making people ashamed just makes them
hide what they're doing, not stop doing it. does that make sense?
okay. so!
i often see images and writing on TEFc (among many other places) that are either obviously AI-generated (usually images), or that i suspect are AI-assisted (usually writing)*. sometimes this is freely admitted to in a disclaimer on the page and sometimes it isn't. i suspect that when it isn't, it's because people are worried about the reception they'll get, which is understandable. like i said at the start, i don't think shaming people is a good or effective way of changing their minds...
*(i used to use character.ai back when it was first popular and then for a little while afterwards, so while there's no such thing as a true 'AI tell' for me to pick up on, there are certain patterns AI uses in writing because of the data it's trained off of that can 'give it away', so to speak - flowery metaphors that don't really make sense in the context of the story even if they sound poetic, "not xyz, not xyz, but [poetic metaphor/phrase]", and a tendency towards maintaining that heightened kind of prose the entire time are a few of them... these are also things that human writers can do as well--the data comes from somewhere, after all--but it's the consistency and repetition of those things that makes it stand out as AI-generated or AI-assisted to me.)
and another thing that i suspect is getting in the way is a simple lack of understanding for
why people use AI to help them with their art. i see a lot of assumptions being made on the wider internet like "they're lazy" or "they can't think for themselves" or whatever else, but i don't think any of those things are true. i think whenever we ascribe "laziness" to someone's behaviour, we're ignoring an actual underlying problem underneath it that's causing it.
so, in the interest of understanding the issue more, here's what i want to know.
to people who use or have previously used AI to generate, or assist them with, their art and writing: why do you use it? and more specifically:
1. what does AI help you with that you would otherwise find difficult to do without it?
2. what's your process like, for using AI? describe it to me, if you can.
3. what makes you choose AI generation over creating things without it? do you think you're not skilled at what you do, do you feel like you don't have enough time to make the things you want, or is it something else?
i'd also really like to know how people
feel when their AI-generated work is praised by other people. does it give you the same sense of fulfillment that being praised for human-made art might give you? if not, why not, and if it does, why do you think that is?
don't feel pressured to answer ALL of this - the core of the discussion i want to have is really "why do people use genAI instead of
not using genAI?". that's what i want to understand.
people who don't use genAI are of course welcome to join and contribute to the discussion, but please
be respectful of others and avoid being passive aggressive or snarky in your replies. remember that we're trying to understand each other better, not hammer each other with our opinions on this, no matter how justified we feel we are in doing so. it's my hope that we can encourage people to post their own human-made creations, no matter how unskilled, even if it's only on TEFc, by encouraging them to do so rather than punishing them for not. personally i'd also love to know what M&A think of the use of genAI on their website, because it seems like something that would be antithetical to their 'vision' for the Forest, but i don't expect them to moderate it any time soon given that the site has never been moderated in
any capacity for the past 20 or so years. for better or worse!
commenting just to say i
.
Thank you for such a
I suspect people use AI because it's a great support tool for those who have ideas but lack the classical skills or the physical ability to bring them to life. Of course, it's not a replacement for a person, and human-made creativity holds more value, but it's important to acknowledge that there are different circumstances that lead people to generative content. Someone might not be able to draw due to illness, someone might have dyslexia and struggle to structure text on their own, and someone might just freeze up in front of a blank page, with an AI-generated draft helping them overcome that.
And when it comes to "laziness," I agree that many people overlook the real cause. More often than not, it's burnout, lack of time due to juggling multiple jobs or heavy responsibilities, and so on. I'd guess that in this way, people are trying not to abandon creativity entirely, but to stay at least partially engaged with it, to have a way to bring some of their thoughts or fantasies into a visible, tangible form.
I respect that the process is sacred for a creator. Yet I can also imagine someone who, after a ten hour shift at a job they do not love, dreams of seeing their character at sunset somewhere in a kinder place. I would not want to scold them for that. I could draw an analogy (likely imperfect but still) to someone buying a ready made pie after work because they have no strength left to go into the kitchen and bake it themselves.
Your wish to encourage people to share their own work is a beautiful thing. I deeply hope that people will stop being afraid to make mistakes in public and will come to know that even the greatest creators began with awkward drafts.
It grieves me when a drawing that someone has already put a piece of themselves into is then passed through an AI filter. In the attempt to make it better, something essential is lost. The very reason we look at another person's creation disappears a special style, the traces of a living decision. Even the shyest hand drawn sketch feels warmer to me than an image smoothed over by an algorithm to meet a machine's standard.
I truly hope our community holds enough warmth that beginners and casual visitors feel safe knowing we value what they create and that no one needs to be perfect to be appreciated.
Quote:Your wish to encourage
Absolutely this ^^^^^
We all start somewhere, and there's nothing more satisfying than seeing your own art improve over time.
i will speak in a jumbled way
i am really glad this post with the soft policy appeared. to be honest, on the day i wrote my previous post, i was truly angry and sincerely wanted to protect my friend. i am aware that my words were sharp and perhaps contained language that seemed harsh. i won’t hide behind excuses yes, i was angry. but it was the kind of anger that comes from a place of loyalty. when you see someone you care about being treated unfairly, your first instinct isn’t to polish your grammar or filter your emotions; it’s to protect. some might focus on my choice of words, using them as a reason to dismiss my point. but i ask you: which is more "unethical" a few heated words spoken in a moment of sincere pain, or the cold, calculated indifference shown toward someone’s creative struggle? i chose to be raw and honest rather than politely fake.
i don’t take back my words regarding ai, but i want to explain why i used it. the truth is, i hadn’t drawn for a very long time, and i wanted to share what was in my head. i was convinced that this platform was exactly the place where i could unleash my creative potential and brush up on my english, as writing requires frequent practice. i thought this was the kind of place where no one would take my "scribbles" too seriously. i made a couple of very rough sketches and used ai to make them look (perfect??). i was very afraid of being judged, which is why i didn't label my work at first. besides, i simply didn't have enough strength or free time to fully invest myself in the manual process as much as i would have liked, even though i truly wanted to.
after all the messages i received, i decided to add disclaimers everywhere. however, after the scandal, i lost the desire to develop my characters at all. that’s quite natural, i suppose. did i feel satisfaction when someone praised my work? to a certain extent, yes because i was the one who created it, first in my mind and then on paper. ai simply helped me clothe the character in the shell i had envisioned. i never uploaded other people's works to intentionally steal them, but i know that ai is already trained on the techniques of many artists, particularly chinese ones. that was something i couldn't change; that foundation was already built in.
would i have been happier if i had finished the work entirely on my own? of course. but i didn't post my bio to fish for praise. i shared it because i felt a strong sense of nostalgia. this game was precious to me, and i wanted to pay a tribute to its memory. i have always believed that something made by human hands will always be valued more than the work of a robot. hana was my outlet my diary, my life, my sadness, and my joy. in those posts, i stopped using ai entirely because i no longer liked how it "spoiled" my work.
what saddens me the most is how easily a place meant for creativity can turn into a place of judgment. we often forget that behind every screen, there is a real person who might be going through a difficult time. when i shared my diary, i was opening a door to my inner world. by choosing to attack rather than understand, you didn't just criticize a method you dampened a spark of inspiration in someone who was just trying to find their way back to art.
i suppose, i just want this place to remain the same paradise it has always been in my memory. a sanctuary where we could all be a little more human. to be honest, it is deeply painful for me to witness or harbor aggression in any form; even when it comes from myself as a defensive reflex, it leaves a bitter aftertaste of sorrow. i have a deep longing for the kindness we seem to have lost, and i find it increasingly hard to stay soft in a world that meets your vulnerability with such coldness. i don't want to carry the weight of bitterness, i only ever wanted to preserve the warmth of the past.
it’s fascinating how in a space that brings together different mentalities, people so easily ignore the language barrier and the ethical side of the coin. it seems that for some, the desire to be "right" far outweighs the grace to be kind. instead of reaching out privately, some preferred public shaming, ignoring my disclaimers and my pleas for positive vibes. it’s a pity that in a community of adults, the concept of "leading by example" is often traded for "pointing fingers" at the first opportunity.
in the end, i’ve realized that the problem here isn't the ai, but the people. it is heartbreaking to see how people with years of life experience choose cruelty over wisdom. unfortunately, i no longer have the desire to create or share my work on this forum. if anyone still wishes to interact with my characters, please reach out to me on discord: ohjesusdave. there, i will be happy to share my toyhouse links and character biographies once they are ready.
and yet, despite everything, i hold no grudge. i refuse to let this experience harden my heart, because i understand that we are all just people hiding behind screens, carrying battles that others cannot see. i choose to forgive. i don't write this to win an argument, but hoping that we can simply understand each other better. if my words have reached even one heart and made it a little softer, then i have already won something far more valuable than being "right." let’s try to be gentle with one another. we never know how much a single kind word can save someone.
For Liliooo, i am aware that
If you could go read your hateful message again, you would see how strongly hateful speech your whole message is. It was truly very hurtful, especially for those you pointed it out for. You said it was only to protect your friend, to be a "loyal" but it doesn't mean that you need to be hateful and use those vulgar words towards people you don't even know.
The AI usage was already behind this whole mess when you sent that hateful message. Stating those ugly words towards others. You showed your angers for those who hasn't done anything wrong here. All that we tried to do, was to give a helpful advice to make clear credits if GenAI was used. I can point out that you made this chaos more ugly with your anger.
You stated that you hate anger, and that you are seeking for peace of sort and yet, you can't even see the heaviness in your own post you made. You literally humiliated many people in here and because of what? few people giving politely advice for you and your friend.
Your actions and your message made me to not comment in the forum, your hateful speech was awful to read and it truly left a mark about you and I really can't be comfortable around you or your friends, who are accepting your hateful behavior.
Once again, you are telling that the people in this community has wronged you, but can't clearly see what your own hateful message bringed out.
Signature made by Saturnia
Fernelescent: i’m sorry, but
i’m sorry, but you mentioned that my first message was filled with hatred and anger, yet you once again overlooked a key point from my long post the language barrier. the full beauty and depth of the russian language simply cannot be fully captured in english speech. in that post (setting aside everything regarding ai), i was merely saying that if a person is unpleasant on the inside, or foolish and rude in their communication, then i have nothing in common with them. if people saw a description of themselves in those words, that is entirely their own interpretation and conviction. i am not the kind of person who feels the need to explain the obvious.
it seems we are trapped in a circle of misunderstanding. you call my words "hateful," but from my perspective, i was reacting to a situation that felt like a public execution of my friend’s dignity. you speak of "polite advice," but that "politeness" was sharp enough to make a person delete their work and disappear. she didn't just leave the forum; she withdrew into herself for several days, shutting down and losing all contact with the outside world. sometimes, a raw, honest outburst of anger in defense of a loved one is more ethical than a cold, organized critique hidden behind a mask of "helpfulness."
i have already admitted that my words were sharp and born from pain. i am human, and i react when those i care about are hurt. if you choose to see only the "vulgarity" of my defense and not the "cruelty" of the situation that caused it, then we truly speak different languages. you say i humiliated people, but i believe i simply mirrored the energy that was brought to us.
i find it ironic that you feel "uncomfortable" around me, while ignoring the fact that my friend was made to feel so unwelcome that she felt forced to retreat. it’s easy to judge the reaction, but much harder to acknowledge the provocation.
i am tired of this conflict. i’ve already shared my truth, and i have no desire to keep dissecting my emotions for people who have already decided i am a villain. if my presence or my loyalty to my friends makes you uncomfortable, then perhaps it is for the best that we keep our distance. i wish you the peace you claim to protect. this will be my final word on the matter.
update: i want to reflect on one last thing. if your words had truly wounded me, and if the heart of this issue was really just about ai, i would have followed in my friend's footsteps and deleted my biographies or at least the images enhanced by technology. but i didn't. i kept them, because the true soul of my message was never about software it was about the sacred duty of protecting a friend and offering an honest, human perspective on the future of art. i stood my ground because i believe in the right to have a personal opinion, even when it’s unpopular. i chose to stay visible not out of defiance, but to honor the truth of my feelings. sometimes, staying soft and keeping your heart open in the face of judgment is the bravest thing a person can do.
i'm not going to address the
this does answer the questions i've been asking, so thank you for sharing that. i can understand why using AI would help you with these things - especially when english isn't your first language.
the TEFc is very supportive of beginner or returning artists. i've always received a lot of support here, even when my art was at its absolute worst - here's a sketch i did in 2009 or so, when i was about 12 years old.
i posted it to TEF, full of self-loathing, insisting it was terrible and bad etc because i wasn't very skilled as an artist yet... and i was still very much supported! especially by more skilled artists who knew exactly how hard it is to get from that point to something better! and although it's obviously unskilled, looking back at it now, i don't think it's "bad" art. i think it's charming and i'm so happy and grateful that i posted it all those years ago.
compare that to my most recent art of the same character:
it's still not perfect, obviously, but you can see i've improved a lot. i wouldn't have been able to do that if i hadn't first started out posting my terrible sketches online for people to encourage me!
it's my hope that encouraging people to post even the most "unskilled" or unpolished sketches, and praising them for doing so, will be more effective than punishing anyone for using genAI as an alternative. but i do think it's important for us to be open and honest when we are using AI for our art, regardless.
and re: the argument, try to remember that when all of this conflict began, all Draak and I (and others) had done was ask to see the original art out of curiousity. nobody had "attacked" anyone at all, and it's really not within our control if it was taken that way! we cannot control the emotional reactions of other people, only our own behaviour.
oh, i forgot to say too -
I tried using AI to generate
Fernelescent, I'm sending you a hug. Ever since that ugly message appeared, I've lost that sense of a warm, safe home for my soul. Maybe I'm wrong, but I think there are some things we should turn a blind eye to while we still can, and not waste our emotional energy on them. In real life, we have to fight, I don’t want to fight here too. It’s easier to stay silent and connect with those who are kindred spirits.
Fernelescent, Tavra, Draak, virtualfriend, thank you all so much!
Signature by Fernelescent
I don't have the energy for
But, my two cents on the original questions:
As it relates to the original topic (artwork):
Pretty much the only time I've found it reasonably useful ("ethical"?) to use AI for art is in generating a face for a human which does not actually exist. By this I mean that traditional "face claims" where you go find a real, live human person's photo somewhere on the internet and say "yeah this is exactly what my character looks like!" kinda weirds me out, so I personally avoid that for my own characters. I would be really weirded out if I stumbled upon a roleplay forum and someone was using *my literal face/identity* for their character, even if it was just benign slice of life roleplay so... "do unto others" and all that. The community has voiced similar feelings in a couple of cases where forums appropriated character artworks and used TEF members' OC's images as references/faceclaims - same concept. Even if you ignore the blatant art theft, it would be weird to see someone writing for "their" character with your character's face on it.
That said, when I have used it for that purpose (waaay back in ArtBreeder's early days), I basically got the face out of my head and used it as a reference to make my own art, and/or to have art commissioned by a flesh and bone human being who could do a much better job, mainly to save the artist the time and frustration of the back and forth of "no his nose is a little more square?" etc.
I've also played around with it a little just to see what it's capable of or to see what kind of ideas I might get for my own artworks, but never with the goal of having the AI piece be the end product. Overall experimentation has brought me to the conclusion that achieving an AI piece which is up to my human artwork standards is next to impossible and also frustrating.
As it relates to life in general:
On rare occasion, I find myself with a task which is at least moderately above my capabilities, but which also needs to be resolved in a timeframe and no person who is capable of either doing it for me or teaching me is readily available, and it is not necessarily something I can Google and self-teach. In example, solving a specific complex mathematical formula with multiple variables, and then converting the new mathematical formula into a spreadsheet friendly format (most recently, a budget spreadsheet which totals all monthly expenses, then calculates the number of hours I would need to work in order to achieve that total while also factoring in the difference between gross pay and net pay - deducting taxes, accounting for insurance stipends, factoring in overtime, etc etc etc).
I set up the spreadsheet on my own and figured out the base formula, but when I went to solve for X I realized that it has been 20 years since high school and I no longer recall how to solve factorial equations with multiple variables and I do not have an instructor, money to pay for said instructor (hence budget spreadsheet), or time to sit through classes to re-learn an entire methodology so that I can use it for this one specific instance and then probably not again for another 20 years.
I knew what I needed and roughly how to get there, so GPT did it in under 30 seconds for free.
It's a really fancy calculator I dust off a couple times a year.
Can that same "I don't have the time or the skill" logic be applied to artwork?
I guess. Someone doesn't want to put in the time and effort to learn and improve and wants that instant gratification. I get it. It feels different with artwork, though.
A math problem has a correct answer and a set number of ways to get there. In practical day to day applications, it's not something which requires creativity, exactly. (yes math can do some cool and creative stuff when someone applies a human element - music theory, graphic visualizations, etc etc, but that's not what I'm talking about here)
Art is an expression of self. Even without touching on the ethics of genAI's training database and where it toes the line of plagiarism/unauthorized use, it seems strange to have an algorithm calculate an expression of yourself for you..
i've only one thing to say to
i believe the best way to tackle these types of ethical conundrums are with sugar, not vinegar. judgement only brews hate and fear. i say this with utmost sincerity: thank you for making this post!
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