Post rut discussion and voting

So, following a lengthy discussion on one of the TEF discords, it's come to our attention that there are things worth bringing up, discussing, and voting on. Many have expressed disappointment in the overall tone of the event, finding the interactions unsatisfactory particularly in the area of actual competitive game-play and realism.
While the Rut is already intended to support serious and realistic play styles, it was distinctly lacking this year for a more party based atmosphere. This isn't intended to condemn such however, but we do need to try to strike a balance that leaves as many, if not all participants, happy with the event.

In the conversation we've managed to come up with some suggestions and critiques. I'll first begin with well meaning suggestions that were bought up by community members, for community members, in how we might be able to try to help accommodate the event overall. Please bear in mind that this is not an attempt to tell people exactly what to do, or how to play, but recommended ideas that might help the event as a whole succeed better in future, for everyone.
The biggest problem seemed to be that many members were AFK and unresponsive. This is something that we as a community have been used to and comfortable with for a long time. Unfortunately, during the Rut, especially while gathered in groups, this proves to be detrimental to everyone else's experience.

The most common suggestions to help in this area are:
* Asking people to, if they can, move to the no-rut zones to AFK so that no one needs to expect anything from you.
* Let your deer sleep when AFK, so again no one expects anything from you.
Alternatively:
* Try to rely less on Discord. Or at least check in more often if you're able.
* Try to be less hesitant to contact one another outside the game.
* If you don't see anything going on, then try to be the one to start something. Yes, anxiety is a big key factor to acknowledge in this, however it might help to know that many members are probably in the same boat. Try your best to push aside your shyness if you can. This is a big part of what the Rut is for.

On a less related note, but still a community-wide suggestion; in future we also would like to see a lot less focus on substance abuse in characters. Yeah, a little bit is fine, but when it overwhelms the events theme, it gets unpleasant for a number of reasons.



As for suggestions on what we can do to help encourage things ourselves; we've discussed a few ideas, all with pros and cons. After reading thoroughly what these ideas are, please proceed to vote on what you think is best, or suggest any ideas you might have. Please understand that as organizers, there's only so much we can do. At the end of the day the Ruts success is and will always be defined by the combined efforts of the community.

First of all and most significantly, there have been calls for a second "sister-event" for the Spring. So far, the concepts and formula is much the same as the current Fall rut. It will use combat and judging to bring people together, however the tone is to be significantly less serious with focus being towards sparring and teaching the inexperienced on how to participate. At the very least, we can start a trial attempt of this event in Spring 2019 to see if it works out.
One of the intended purposes of having two events is that the Spring event will be more toned down, so that the Fall event can focus more on serious gameplay between players and characters.

One other significant idea is splitting the forest arenas in two. The theoretical idea is that the First Forest could be a place for more laid back rutting while the Birch forest could become a place for more serious and realistic participants to gather and find others looking for a similar experience.
This is NOT to be mistaken as being a strict separating border, as players and characters will be able to seamlessly travel between both halves depending on what sort of Rutting experience they're after.
However there are still some concerns that this might cause some form of segregation in the forest.

A similar and less dramatic idea would be implementing "Activity Hot spots" again and hoping it works out better. These are areas (usually pre-defined by the community throughout the years of rutting) which encourage serious herds and gatherings. This is NOT to be mistaken as "Rutting can only happen here", as with the exceptions of red-zones, the rest of the forest remains a free for all in the event.



And on a smaller note; during the event Aivilo and I discussed the roles of Competitors and Challengers. We contemplated the idea of merging the two roles into one to Combatants, leaving all different playstyles and flexibility to the player to decide on how their character will participate. There will still be great variables between character types.
This is an idea drawn from how fluid both these roles tend to be. A challenger may hold a herd and a Competitor may not compete with a show of strength. Merging the roles will theoretically open up even more fluidity and dynamic playstyles, but the expense may be that people will be slower to know what to expect out of their rival.
But that being said, even with the roles in place a rival can still be unpredictable.
This is entirely the community's call.



And last of all, did you feel like the Rut was long enough? Was it too short? Too long?

Vote on all issues here!

-V

Jacklo's picture

If you think this whole

If you think this whole topic, this whole thread, is just because I specifically felt Stagg was treated unfairly is massively incorrect??? And quite childish?? I wasn't even present for a good 80-90% of what was said on the discord server in the rut 2018 aftertalk where most of these issues were raised.

I was fully aware what declining the spar would do, what the judges would react to it, and Stagg deeming getting beaten up for a bunch of people he doesnt know isn't worth it? But I dont appreciate the way I was spoken to? And neither did some others in the chat like Lost.

You shouldn't need examples because its not fair to all hound on one character for things they didn't know they were doing '''wrong''' at the time, it will not end well and people may feel unfairly victimized.

Jacklo's Characters/Hub
Discord: Daddy#4977
Awentia's picture

There isn't a need for

There isn't a need for specific examples or to drop names, that isn't what this is about. It's completely unnecessary because at the end of the day, this shouldn't be about personal issues with players. We're looking at it as a whole- on how to improve next year's Rut. If anyone has an issue with someone else they need to sort that out and discuss it privately. Not on this blog 'cause it's here so that the Hosts can take into consideration any constructive criticism.

This year's rut had a different mood; and it was more relaxed and laid-back for the majority. Wasn't a bad mood, just wasn't what a lot of players were used to is all! There wasn't much competition between competitors and challengers, rounding up of judges or judging per say. This is for a variety of reasons, including the lack of players that were available during this year's rut and those that were involved had to afk a lot this year due to reasons beyond their control or busy lives. It is what it is, no changing that and there's no reason to get worked up over it now. Cause it's done and over with. I enjoyed the rut's social aspect per normal, but personally did miss having my characters get doted on and swooped up by competitors, etc.. I entered Arcturus this year in hope to cause a bit of chaos and bring up the energy slightly. But I gotta' lot of real life stuff to deal with, so wasn't able to be on him as often as I'd hoped. But I tried, like a lot of people did. No biggie.

In response, post rut, there has been a majority who would like next year's rut to have more competition and rut-like behavior. Which is fair enough, right? It's what the rut is primarily based on. A lot would like this because their characters didn't get to experience that adrenaline, ability to fight and access to showing more natural behavior such as marking, herding, etc.. But not just 'realistic' behaviour, there was also a lack of good rut fighting vibes. Some characters like the fights just for the sake of itching to duel and hash it out. It makes for some good in character development! Those characters, in character, were confused as quite often they were met with more happy-go lucky romping and playing. Which isn't wrong (my Arc jiggled a couple o' times with his judges playfully), but as characters of whom are used to a different kind of rut they were like ??? what is going on. Hence the request for a boost in competitive behavior next year as those type of characters will be able to be played more without going outside of their normal in character behavior. but we want to boost the competition more without taking away what people enjoyed this year

It's very hard to combine everyone's experience into a group whole, which is why we've had discussions on discord, etc.. to provide feedback to how we can improve next year's rut. No one's experience of this year's rut is incorrect. We're just trying to work on how to improve next year's experience so more people enjoy it. We're all wanting to keep it the way it was this year (as a lot of people did enjoy it), but discuss additions to the rut that means mORE people can enjoy it and not just specific groups yeye. It's our job as a community to ensure this community event is as enjoyable for as many people as possible. A nice common ground that's inclusive for as many different play styles as possible. SO. The different options on the poll are to see what people think would be a good addition to next year's rut that would help make it more inclusive and boost activity. we can't rely on the organizers to do everything, it isn't their responsibility. They're doing this out of good will. :} This doesn't need to be messy at all. keep it chill and positive y'all.

Discord: Tzvii#9954 // Signature by Wake.
0baf0's picture

I am not saying it's because

I am not saying it's because of you. Not at all. Just that it stems from personal issues or specific interactions rather than the event as a whole. It would be more helpful to address the specific interactions like we did here, instead of trying to rework the event as a whole. Changing the event wouldn't help me understand that you were hurt by the comments. Only this conversation right here can make that clear.

I apologised for what I said. Nothing more I can do here.

How is it fair then to change the whole event (for one character, even?)? The player behind the character won't know what they did wrong if no one tells them, which can be done in a calm and polite manner. But I am just repeating what Okami, J!n and others said better before me.

edit: Let me stress this once again... I had no idea Jacko had an issue with what happened. You can't expect people to just know when you don't say anything. And you can't expect change of rules to do that for you either. If it wasn't brought up, I would never know Jacklo and others had issue with what I and others had said.
You want others to understand what they did wrong, but for that you need to be more clear and address them privately and directly. Cryptic talk doesn't work, as shown here.
Icon - ahimsa.Signature - Qanat. ♥

Please take a moment to

Please take a moment to consider what you're suggesting by asking people to not rely on their medium of conversing.

'These people aren't acting the way I want them to so please make them change their behavior!'

TEF is incredibly lacking when it comes to portraying the sort of complex characters players often set out to create, there's a very good reason why players have stopped relying so much on its mere handful of emotes. Therefor you're not making the event more enjoyable for everyone by saying this, the people being tabbed out and talking with their friends are simply enjoying the event the way they want to, and while we should absolutely encourage active participation and common courtesy for the favor of everyone, no one should be obligated to interact at all times. That's not really a problem, just unfortunate for those who wanted something different.

Obviously there were many players who felt the same way as you and wanted more from the event, many, meaning you shouldn't technically have had to look hard to find others to play with. I'm uncertain whether this is something that can be effectively accomodated via the rut rules since it all seems to boil down to personal effort and disregard of inattentive players.
WayfarerHart's picture

It's actually getting really

It's actually getting really difficult to keep track of this discussion on account of all the back and forths. Have we come to understand the problems yet? If so, why are we seemingly still looping back to them?
I'm afraid it's hard not to repeat things that have already been said, sorry about that.

I want to be clear: there is nothing wrong with partying, that's part of the event. But players who are actively participating could try to pay more attention, especially during fights, or sleep/hang in AFK zones if they're unable to for any reason. We're not against people going AFK or tabbing out, and we should completely emphasize with people who have to run off suddenly so we shouldn't hold anyone in bad esteem if it happens now and then, but if you can, please try your best to play and engage in a way that's considerate for everyone in the event.
This we already know and have established.

I also don't want people to feel like they were wrong for partying; yeah, the rut this year wasn't very well motivated, I can understand the frustration brought on by this, and I can understand some who probably just went with the flow. This rut has passed now, there's no changing what happened, but we can strive to be better in future.
I don't think we need to add anything more to this topic on account of the circles this keeps going in. There are understandably a lot of strong feelings over this issue but I don't think there's anything constructive that could be added to it now. All's already been said many times.

Also, we all can do more to communicate too. Although it's encouraged not to rely on Discord, Discord is still very much a big part of our modern TEF experience and that probably won't be changing. Please poke each other on Discord for attention if necessary, be it in a group chat or individually.

As for the incident with Stagg, yeah, joke or not we should all try to be empathetic on how it would feel to be on the receiving end of that mockery, and be more considerate of one another. And Jacklo could have expressed their displeasure sooner (though I can wholly empathize with anxiety that would have been brought on by that); it's late now and unfortunately in public here. Real kudos to 0baf0 for apologizing and I hope the others can too. Let's all try to be better in future, okay guys?
OkamiLugia's picture

I'm sorry for implying that

I'm sorry for implying that specifics needed to be laid out here, but I am skeptical that people would bring up any of their issues privately as they occur or even afterwards, as Aivilo has confirmed. My strong emotions come from the way comments here have left a lot of people feeling like they're suspect of being bad actors without really knowing for sure, and little good comes out of that environment. It's alienating at best.

I'm also skeptical that changes to the event are going to have a significant impact, because at the end of the day there just are not enough people online at all points of the day to have a high intensity event. More active enforcement of tabbing out in rut-free/afk zones might help; maybe it'll motivate people to pay better attention if they're forced to keep looking back at the viewer, and cut down on how many tabs one has open, but a lot of grievances brought up don't have a whole lot to do with this particular issue on the surface. And imo, a way to combat low activity in-game is to encourage an active dialogue, be it on TEFc or messenger app.

In my experience, I don't need to rely on messenger apps when there's stuff happening in the game, and a small and quick confirmation about what players want from an interaction is hardly a burden. It's a boon. A the risk of going on a tangent, we as a community have come a long way from the days where no one would even ask before attacking another character. A lot of resentment was bred from the days where brawls would encompass nearly a dozen characters vs. one "bad guy". Or if a bad guy liked picking on a certain character and sometimes the chased player didn't feel like dealing with that every time they logged in.

I brought up display dancing

I brought up display dancing because I have a character that does that, and I was concerned it might have looked like I wasn't taking things seriously. Although he also did fight when challenged.

Anyway that's not what I wanted to focus on. Although I did say Discord shouldn't be heavily relied on, I mean to the point that you're hardly even paying attention to what's happening in the game. However it is still very useful as a mean of communication. And the point I want to focus on is just that: communication.

I think that is really the key issue here. The more comments I read the more I think these issues could all be resolved through regular communication. There is a reason why the rut application includes a space for contact info. Even character bios and rut blogs serve as a form of communication. People use these to tell others what to expect of their characters. Just looking at someone's blog could potentially clear up a lot of things without having to directly contact anyone. Of course not everyone uses blogs that way, or there might be something you still don't understand or can't be addressed that way. That's when you need to actually reach out to the player. Most of us have more than one way we can be contacted. If you can't do it for whatever reason, whether it's because of anxiety or something else, that's totally okay, just don't pin all the blame on other people when that happens.

I'm really tired and I have to stop writing so I'm not sure if I'm entirely clear on that but I'll come back to this later if I have to.
Mahj's picture

I have some complaints about

I have some complaints about the Wildcard category, but I'm not entirely sure how to word them.

In short, I think there are too many wildcards, I understand people want to be included and they want people to know they can be treated a certain way, but I don't think you need to enter your deer in the rut, at all, Wildcard or otherwise, if you're just going to sit there and afk or you're only going to interact with the same group you always interact with. There being as many wildcards as there are/were gives the impression that more people were participating actively than actually were. I noticed there were some fawns in the 'Wildcard' category and I don't think that's entirely necessary, you can still interact with rut participants, and vice-versa, in a non-rut manner without being entered in the rut, a fawn isn't going to be treated as a judge, a challenger, or anything, regardless of whether they're entered or not they're going to be treated as a fawn, so entering only clogs up space. This goes for other characters that have no intention of participating in any way shape or form, if you're going to afk, only interact via discord, or only hang out in no rut zones, there's no need to enter. You aren't obligated to be on the list to be in the forest.

That probably sounded a bit confusing, but in general, I feel like Wildcard needs a rework, some extra definition, and some parameters as to who should and should not bother to enter under wildcard.

Mahj You make perfect sense

Mahj
You make perfect sense to me.

I was confused by so many fawns/sub-adult characters being entered as wildcards and then saying they're too young to participate, so why even enter then? I never said anything because I figured they weren't breaking any rules, and it's not as though those characters were actually acting as judges or sparring. But then I think I remember some they could be herded or treated as a judge? I think this is another thing havin a spring event would help with, because fawns and adolescent characters can use that as a time to practice and be involved in something. And maybe it just needs to be made more clear that non-participants are still allowed to interact with rut participants, they would just be treated like they are any other time.

I believe the wildcard category was introduced for the benefit of those who felt their characters don't fall into one particular category, for example they might switch between acting as a judge or acting as a challenger depending on the activity level.

This whole debate is making

This whole debate is making me feel like I'm not adequate enough to participate at all, honestly. Getting a bad feeling... It doesn't feel great when someone doesn't want the stress of constant fighting and wants to mostly participate in the social aspect of it, but it's consistently getting harped on and it just. Makes me really want to back out of any future ruts due to feeling horrible and insecure now.

Not debating or anything sgjfhk it's just my thoughts and feeling on it... ;;

I don't think anyone's

I don't think anyone's talking about constant fighting, just that some people wanted a more serious tone. It shouldn't be constant fighting, anyway. You could also just enter as a judge or wildcard. Judges don't typically fight at all, although I had a few attack my challenger last year.

There's also nothing wrong with just not joining the rut, and just playing how you want instead. You're still allowed to interact with rut players whether you're in it or not.

Quote:Not debating or

Quote:
Not debating or anything sgjfhk it's just my thoughts and feeling on it... ;;
Aivilo's picture

Quote:I believe the wildcard

Quote:
I believe the wildcard category was introduced for the benefit of those who felt their characters don't fall into one particular category, for example they might switch between acting as a judge or acting as a challenger depending on the activity level.


While Wildcard does accommodate these characters to some degree (though somewhat unofficially due to a loophole - really you should register your character under the role they will play under the most), it is mainly for deer who are not participating as a competitor/challenger/judge but whose players are open to interactions in which they may be mistaken as such. For example, Jim Bob the Wildcard has a significant other, and may be mistaken for a competitor with a judge (who is actually just his SO), so Frankie the Challenger picks a fight with him thinking they're part of the game. (Which... they ARE part of the game, but not. It's why the role was initially coined 'Involved Non-Participant', but there was an issue with the 'non-participant' terminology which led to those players being ignored during the Rut).


Krovtymah, I'm sorry you've felt (essentially) singled-out. The social aspect is incredibly important to the Rut, and we definitely don't want to downplay that or condemn anyone for enjoying it -- only to increase activity in the other sections that others felt were lacking. I do hope you'll give the spring event a go, since it will be aimed primarily at the social aspect and will be less intense than the Rut, and maybe consider dipping a toe into the revised Rut next year as well.



Annnd side note, since I'm only interjecting occasionally, I am reading everything here and on Discord, and I will provide clarification wherever I am able, but so long as things aren't getting out of hand I'm probably going to just.... absorb everyone's opinions for a while and make a pro/cons list to go over with Vee. So please don't feel like you're unheard if I or we are largely quiet ♥

As I’ve said multiple times

As I’ve said multiple times here and in discord, we don’t want to take away anything from those that had a blast this year, nor do we want to change the rut completely so they don’t get to have that experience again, all we want is inclusion, the possibility to get to experience the kind of rut we would like too, a balance for both playing styles. We are 100% thinking about those that enjoyed the rut this year how it was, which is why we’re only asking for inclusion, not a change to take away from others

Sig: Aihnna

ShrinkingRose's picture

I personally still don't see

I personally still don't see what prevented people from creating situations that would allow them to display the play style they wanted. So much emphasis is put on not waiting for others to come back from being afk and making things happen on the spot. Same for being 'serious'. Just do it. And then those who want 'serious' will flock to you.
Still not sure what's really hiding under 'serious' but in my opinion there were very serious participants out there this year. But my definition of serious is that characters fulfil their role as best as their whole being allows them to, they stay true to the expectations of the role but also to themselves. No one should talk smack about a Judge who dances and romps as long as they pick their winner of a fight.
In my view, all the actions that took place this year weren't a reason to hinder anyone's play style. My final word on the topic. Goodbye.

it's been repeated so much

it's been repeated so much here and especially in the discord channel

again, all we want is a small addition making it easier for players who want the same experience to find each other, we do not want to change it completely for the players who liked it this year.. we want to keep inclusion of them, but we want a small addition for us.. but all we're getting is exclusion and debates about something that is as simple as a small addition? im failing to still understand why people are against making this even more inclusive for players and characters alike, giving those players (and others who are drawn to it in the future) an addition to further our creativity and that of those that would like it yet are saying we're the ones being exclusive? we want to keep the rut the way it was this year for the players who liked it, but.. all we want is an addition to make it easier for more play styles and easier access to find the players who want the same

i dont know how much clearer and easier i can word it for those who still dont understand :/

Sig: Aihnna

OshiBoo's picture

I think the problem thats

I think the problem thats being run into here is that in the process of trying to be inclusive to certain playstyles you're fundamentally being exclusive as well. You cant have one without the other in this situation.
To clarify: Asking for hot spots to ordain an area for a particular playstyle tells other players that they won't be accepted there unless they fit the playstyle. Given a vast amount of players have anxiety - thats only going to add into people not being comfortable with even trying and it'll limit where players and their characters feel like they can go in the event. To top it off, we only have so many players in the community - you'd essentially would be dividing those numbers in half or worse - more than that. Leaving either very few in those hot areas or very few in the 'normal' play area. Which can lead to more people feeling left out than before and probably resentful too.


Thats what seems to be the hangup here. A good portion of players don't think anyone was being excluded in any way this year as everyone was more than welcome to approach and do as their characters will but somewhere in the event another good portion of players felt slighted by the activities as a whole and it wasn't brought up or mentioned to those involved or the event coordinators. It feels a little bit like being blamed for enjoying the event however we could.


A lot of participants were tabbed out most of the time that i was on - with the exception of groups that were stirred up to try and get some fun going when it was too quiet. Neither of my judges were invited to join the other groups nor were they hardly 'fought for' outside of the more playful crowd. I'm not saying that to make it about myself by any means - i saw a lot of other players that had similar experiences as i did. The groups i joined made this all happen because it was quiet and because they felt the need to get things active and include people who weren't getting involved otherwise. Something that every participant in the rut can and should do but to me at those times they seemed to have chosen not to. Which no big deal everyone needs a break here and there.
This might be why some players are feeling that the need to make 'hotspots' or change the way the event works isn't going to help as that wasn't the problem in their eyes. A lack of the needed communication as well as player attentiveness as a whole seemed to be a large part of the issue from my perspective. Its a community event and it relies on the community to keep the energy going and active, all anyone had to do was take initiative and get something going themselves.


Again not trying to single anyone out or make anyone feel attacked at all for things that may have been outside of their control, I had plenty of times I had to leave my desk and handle real life issues so thats never something i'll put anyone down for. It happens, im just explaining the perspectives in the hopes it helps a little with understanding why myself and maybe some other players don't fully understand the want for the hotspots.
LostintheEcho's picture

A few years ago i'm pretty

A few years ago i'm pretty sure we encountered this same predicament, except it was the other way around. The event seemed toO serious for some players, and there wasn't enough focus on the social aspect of the event. And so the community collectively decided to change the event slightly to focus more on socialising in an attempt to balance things out. This year things toppled too far to one side again, only now things seem too lax for a few of us. But unlike a few years ago, we're now faced with a divide as others don't want to add elements to the event to help balance things again.

From the characters perspective, they are IC, so if they feel like they can't get involved, they wont. And we shouldn't have to bend/oocly make our characters fit in, no one should have to do that. But as it stands, certain players are missing out, just like years ago when things were flipped the other way. We just want a balance..

If the 'changes' don't work, then they don't work, and we'll have a look at things again next year. But there's no harm in trying. Everything is trail and error at the end of the day.
Sigi by Wake

Asking for hot spots to

Asking for hot spots to ordain an area for a particular playstyle tells other players that they won't be accepted there unless they fit the playstyle.
as stated in a previous post of mine (or maybe it was on the discord channel), no one will be made to feel like they cant go into these hot spots, there is no physical barrier stopping them, no gate keeping happening, the only thing is expectations. You go to the hill between the ruins and idol expecting to be in the pit of the rut because that's where the majority of the activity goes on, this wouldn't be different.. going into the hot spots (or outside of them) you expect to find what they're designed for. Either realistic rutting with an emphasis
on more competitive drive or a more social side aspect.

for example if my dumbarse jae wandered into the hot spot i would 100% expect his arse to get kicked (and he'd deserve it).. all it comes down to is expectations.. having more of my laid back characters wandering into the spots i would expect them to be met with competitive drive to either collect or kick arse, it doesn't mean they're not allowed in there

But having spots (or whichever is incorporated) is going to allow a range of players an easier accessibility of finding the same style and wanted experience. They're going to be designed for people to find others who have a similar style and want to exchange experience/rp

It is absolutely no ones fault that some players couldnt bring in certain characters or play them because of how the rut was this year. The rut is changing and that's fine, it's good, and i'm glad people enjoyed this rut. I did on occasion myself im not going to deny that, and just because players want to have an addition that would help them feel inclusive doesn't mean it's taking anything away from anyone else. It's making it fairer imo, more balanced for the different styles instead of making anyone feel exclusive because it's ICly impossible to play characters in it. Just because you have a character that may be more interested in one spot doesnt mean it cant go somewhere else? I have some characters that would drift between all places, some that would stay outside of the spots and some that would stay inside only unless to rest elsewhere. Signing up a character that would prefer the social side isn't making it impossible for them to go to hot spots to check it out. There is nothing about these spots that are made to be exclusive, only inclusive, which is why we only want the addition, and not a whole rut change completely (something none of us want because im glad that people enjoyed this rut, it's made to be enjoyable and i wouldn't want to lessen someone's joy or take it away). It's all about balance and inclusion of all styles and rp

Sig: Aihnna

OshiBoo's picture

If icly a character won't get

If icly a character won't get involved then yes, they simply won't - but how is changing the event going to fix that? Characters will still be characters, they won't get involved and stir up fights and activity then... how will adding hotspots or splitting the forest solve that? but yeah, trial and error is all we can do anyway. I'm suggesting we dig down to fix other issues before we resort to splitting up the forest any more than it has been.


And yes I understand the mentality but players will be players just the same as characters will be, at the end of the day a hot spot is no different from any other place in the forest but I get that the assigned expectations are what will be different. That still doesn't change how reactions will likely be due to players, anxiety and just character mentality in general. Unfortunate but something to take into account, people will still feel more left out or simply won't participate - both of which can kill the event further or stir resentment. The very notions shared in this debate make that very clear. The rut already allows for inclusivity, you play as you wish and follow some very simple guidelines - players and characters - either by behaviors or communication - are the limitations. Regardless of how the 'arena' changes.

Thank you for explaining it though, not everyone is comfortable with being in the main discord(myself included) and i know a few people who weren't there for the conversation that will benefit from you making what is intended that much clearer.
Gustiro's picture

no one will be made to feel

no one will be made to feel like they cant go into these hot spots

And yet several people are voicing the fact that they already feel that way and these areas haven't even been added into the rut or even decided on yet.

And on the chance that I will be "blacklisted" by a number of the community for saying it....

I find it funny that a great number of the community are saying how they felt included and had fun this year, who of which voiced in years past said they felt left out or excluded, while at the same time a number of the people that are saying they felt left out or excluded this year because of this years activities are folks that are use to getting a lot of attention from the community.

And before anyone jumps to the whole "you're making it all about you, you did/didn't get attention last/this year", I have had more than enough of my share of attention from the community through Gustiro in years past. Had I wanted attention all I would have needed to do was jump on Gustiro. Even when my other characters would get ignored by some people these same people would jump at the chance to play with Gustiro. But as Gustiro gets a lot of attention my other characters actually need active effort put into them to get so much as a look at them.

Could it be possible that the people that felt left out this year simply did not get the attention they expected from previous years? That they actually had/would have had to make an effort this year to get said attention, and to the magnitude they're use to?
Jacklo's picture

Man why you gotta go and try

Man why you gotta go and try and make it personal, it devalues everyones side of the arguments here.

Jacklo's Characters/Hub
Discord: Daddy#4977
Gustiro's picture

And who said it was personal?

And who said it was personal? Do you feel it is personal? I see it as the community as a whole. The people who had fun are feeling attacked and being guilt tripped being told "they're excluding people". A great number that felt left out in years past. I can't be the only one that sees that. And yet the people that felt left out this year are people use to being the center of attention. How about that for clarity?

Either way, I'm not the one ever left out. I'm use to being flocked around. So perhaps the people often left out needs someone that is often the center of attention to speak up for them.
Qanat's picture

THIS IS JUST MY OPINION, i

THIS IS JUST MY OPINION, i feel like a gggood few of these 'issues' being brought up aren't something fundamentally wrong with the rut, and are more to do with person to person communication, style and individual feelings that go faaaar beyond organized events within TEF.
I ONLY SAY THIS BECAUSE it doesn't seem like that's something that we can do anything about/for while trying to figure out rut activities purely?!

AND I'M DEFINITELY not saying that they're being brought up under a guise- i don't think that at all. i just think that the genuine concerns that popped up in the rut discussion go beyond it at its core. AND THAT'S SORTA WORRYING because that definitely can't be solved here..

We're doing a good job trying to get to the base of what people want in the rut, what would make people happy in the rut but we're getting pulled aside by not-so-rut things maybe?!?!
Awentia's picture

^ Agreed. The entire tone

^ Agreed.

The entire tone of these posts are becoming more bitter and it’s getting very directed towards personal issues. I don’t really believe any of this needs to be said on this blog. Any rut related comments are being repeated and the rest of this now is just salty shit that honestly shouldn’t be public :/// It’s becoming uncomfortable for a lot of people
Discord: Tzvii#9954 // Signature by Wake.
Gustiro's picture

And that is also a point a

And that is also a point a lot of people tried to make too, Qanat, thank you for saying that.

Maybe someone needs to just come out and say it, instead of hiding behind a vial of politeness.
That's just an ingredient for a community to be divided behind the scenes, the breeding ground for abuse behind closed doors. And what some people that has been accusing me of even when I wasn't being so; passive-aggressive behavior that only the people involved sees that plays on more sensitive peoples anxieties, victimizing those that only want to play in a deer game and RP. Or simply being accused of it when you weren't - playing on everyone's imaginations and demonizing people.

As personal as you all make it sound, I've been seeing it happen to many people throughout this discussion from several different "cliques'.
Jacklo's picture

It really sounds like you're

It really sounds like you're trying to say people who want a more inclusive rut are doing it out of selfish reasons because they don't feel as popular this time around, which is ridiculous, as two players in this very thread are on opposite sides of the fence in opinion, but had intensely popular characters this year and years prior??

As Ems keeps stating, I also really don't understand why people are fighting so hard against ideas that haven't even yet been tested or implemented and are additions to the rut, not subtractions. We should wait for the votes from the poll to go up and discuss it further than continue to try and devolve the thread into petty popularity finger pointing.

Jacklo's Characters/Hub
Discord: Daddy#4977
Gustiro's picture

fighting so hard against

fighting so hard against ideas that haven't even yet been tested or implemented and are additions to the rut


Because as I've stated before and other people before me people are already feeling uncomfortable with it and feel it would take away from the rut as a whole. Plus the fact people are feeling targeted.

You keep repeating the same things and people are responding with answers. And then the people that respond get shot down with guilt tripping. These same tactics are used in abuse and gaslighting. Oh, and politics.

It's ok. I've said my peace. Now I'll let it be. Good luck to those who do have good intention for people and the community. <3
Qanat's picture

GUS pls don't agree with me

GUS pls don't agree with me and then use that example to say the exact opposite of what i was saying ASLSLAKASLKSLA. no hard feelings but i think you missed my entire point ;;

I DON'T think there's some veil, i don't think people are whining behind politeness and i think it's sad that anyone would try and 'WOW EXPOSE' people genuinely trying to make things comfortable for others. it destroys the entire point of this conversation and pretty much just reads as people saying the community doesn't give a shit which people with anxiety are already worried about. open it up like that, and it's doomed from the start- literally nobody will be happy. why would anyone wanna partake in a conversation if they believe that's the entire point of this? 3: i don't think it's good to promote that sort of ideal

this is literally the opposite of what this post was supposed to like.. do.. i think
Aivilo's picture

Thank you, everyone, for your

Thank you, everyone, for your contributions. However, the tone of this thread has indeed reached a level that was not intended for the discussion. Please take some time to breathe, and remember that we are a community. We may not always agree, but we are in this together and should be respectful of that.
WayfarerHart's picture

I'd like all players to stop

I'd like all players to stop posting in here. It's getting too personal, too heated. It's time to step back and let this thread fade as an archive. I'll post the results in a new thread when I'm able.

I'd really recommend anyone feeling frustration take some time to do whatever they need to do to relax. Take some out and feel better soon.
WayfarerHart's picture

I'd like all players to stop

I'd like all players to stop posting in here. It's getting too personal, too heated. It's time to step back and let this thread fade as an archive. I'll post the results in a new thread when I'm able.

I'd really recommend anyone feeling frustration take some time to do whatever they need to do to relax. Take some time out and feel better soon.
0baf0's picture

-breathes- -relaxes-

-breathes-
-relaxes-
Icon - ahimsa.Signature - Qanat. ♥