I can't exactly tell from your post but and I've never had a sorority tank, but yeah bettas are very unpredictable personality wise. :/ This subreddit is great for advice. I do know that you need at least 5 females in a sorority. I personally wouldn't put them in anything less than a 15 gal, buut that varies from person to person I guess, heh
Step 1. Add a fuck ton more plants.
Step 2. Always have at least 6-8 females. The more the merrier. (I've found that 12 is the magic number)
Step 3. Don't expect the chain of dominance to remain the same forever, these girls are going to constantly challenge each other and though you'll go through 'peaceful times' there will be days where you'll come home to them having shred each other to ribbons.
Step 4. Over feed more often than not and only feed once a day. When you have your girls stuffed and fat they're less likely to fight. This also assures that the more submissive females have a chance to snag some food seeing as if you feed the typical three pellets per fish, the dominant ones just gobble it up and the smaller girls go without.
I've kept sororities for years now and it's a challenge that's for sure. However it is rewarding. Even if they won't live as long as fish kept by themselves.
Also, you're right about crowntails being more aggressive. They're ALWAYS my trouble makers. However most recently my halfmoon girl ruled the roost, with a blue crowntail girl right behind.
In my prior tank it was ruled by a blue crowntail.
OH
Another important thing, have your females in at LEAST a twenty gallon. I've noticed that ten gallon setups fail soooooo quickly. They just don't have enough room to escape each other.
I've only kept one or two male bettas at a time, or one female, so I have no advice or experience. But man I love the fact that a group of female bettas are called a sorority. ;_;
Bettas are gorgeous. I'd love to see pics if you ever get a chance! And Nazzard your tank is gorgeous.
My last betta (God, I can't remember his actual breed, I want to say dragonscale? Please correct me if I"m wrong) had a ton of personality. He was curious of my other tank ( a ten gallon, I set his tank beside it so he could watch the inhabitants) and would often watch what I was doing. I really miss him.
Ok, didn't expect this many replies. X D Thank you all for the replies and advice! I'll try to answer as many questions as I can. I'll try to get pictures too but not today. : P
Current females we have: Nelly - Teal Crown Tail. (My mother's) Amaya - Black and Green-ish Halfmoon. (Mine.) Opel - White with teal fins and teal iridescence Crown Tail.
(I got for my mother BUT I'm tempted to steal this lovely lady.) Pearl (name may change) - White Halfmoon. (Mine)
The first attempts:
At the VERY beginning we started with just two females (Nelly and Amaya) because I had not read about the "3 or more" rule until after the fact. We started with a 2.5 gallon tank that we planned on upgrading to a 10 gallon tank after my move (which I'll be moving house again in March/April) and adding more females AFTER the upgrade.
After the initial dominance dance things seemed to settle down peacefully with Nelly as the boss fish. However, Nelly became showy again. She would just get up in Amaya's face and basically do the dominance dance but Amaya more or less ignored her and did her fishy things peacefully. Things were like that a while until Nelly started getting nippy and more aggressive to the point I had to remove Amaya. It was during this I was researching more and found the 3 or more rule. So that's when we got Opel. There we tried adding the girls together again.
Opel took to the tank like a champ. She flared at Amaya some but when Amaya didn't reciprocate she pretty much left Amaya alone. Nelly and Opel flared at each other a lot and Opel was the first to get nippy though Nelly was the one to start something, always Nelly. It SEEMED that Nelly became top girl again which ended with both Crown Tails teaming poor, chill Amaya. I promptly removed Amaya for fear they'd kill her... Nelly and Opel were mostly peaceful for a while, Nelly being showing from time to time but Opel standing up to her which made Nelly back off, and I left them together overnight. The next morning they still seemed ok although it seemed that Opel became top fish. I took a shower and when I looked again it seemed Opel beat the crap out of Nelly and continued to harass her so I removed Opel.
We were going to try again with the fourth female, Pearl, hoping that they teamed Amaya because she was the odd one. However, my mother found a 20 gallon tank on sale and decided to start setting her sorority up sooner than anticipated. So we thought it best to just house them all in the 20gal at her house until I can get my 10 gallon properly ready for my girls. We currently have all four females separated in bowls until we have the 20 gallon ready.
Plans for the 20 Gallon:
- Lots of plants. My mother is mostly going to collect some live plants from her other healthy, none betta tanks at her house. Plus she has a large drift wood she will be adding as well.
- Adding shrimp. My mother has some showy shrimp in a 3 gallon that she was wanting to put in a larger tank. We've read shrimp are ok and even good to add with the females.
- Otocinclus Catfish. We've read that they get along well with female betta. They don't get as big as their cousins which is a plus. We also read that they are pretty social and need others to school with so we plan on adding three to the 20 gallon later.
Plans for the 10 Gallon:
I originally read that 10 Gallon was good for sororities. But now I'm reading more and more from you all and other sources that it might not be good enough. Which is disappointing since I had not wanted to go any bigger than a 10 gallon while I am still in college. I guess I may just have to keep my girls with my mother's for now.
Questions:
I read that more is better. But at the same time I keep reading that there should only be one fish per 2 gallons of water. In a 20 gallon tank that will have 3 Oto' catfish and maybe a couple of shrimp... how many female betta should we have?
I have read that the female betta need space to establish territories... but other places say I should crowed them so they fight less... I am reading a lot of contradictory things. We really want to do this right. Nazzard, you're saying at least 6-8. For a 20 gallon, wouldn't 12 be too many? Have you ever had shrimp/Oto (or any other fish) in your sororities?
How big is your tank? How many fish? How often do you clean your tank?
Feeding-
I feed my boys a pellet food. I have been feeding the females the same pellet food but they seem to have trouble swallowing it. (Too hard/big for them?) They get it down but I don't know if it can become an issue. I've tried soaking before putting it in but it sinks too quickly and they don't seem to be interested once the food hits the bottom. Prissy ladies don't want to eat off the floor. : P
Plus Nelly seems to stick her nose up at pellet food for this reason maybe? First time I fed her she snapped it up quickly but than spat it out. Ever since then she gives pellet food a dirty look than turns her nose up at it. She seems healthy and very lively so I don't think she's sick. I tried fasting her first because I figured maybe she was over fed from the store. When that didn't work my mother got some worm treats. She ate that just fine. Spoiled brat. We were debating on trying flakes but I had always done pellets in the past with betta so I don't know. Ideas, advice?
~~~~
Other fish are so much easier. lol
Sorry if everything seems ramblely and choppy. I tried to organize it where it'd be easy to read and skip anything you didn't want to read. But it has been a busy day and my brain is in dead tired zone.
Oh, and for anyone interested. We found some information that says the "breeding stripes" can also be aggression stripes. So that answers that question.
And Kaoori, Dragon Scales are a thing. One of my two males is a Dragon Scale. Very flashy boy. :3
Hope I answered everything, everyone! Sorry if I missed anything!
But at the same time I keep reading that there should only be one fish per 2 gallons of water.
Edit: Oh geeze, I thought this was the 1 inch per gallon rule, but I see it's even worse haha. In that case, I can keep 10 plecos in a 20 high! Geeze. They'd be dead in a week.
Original: That's a lousy rule, and should be a rough estimate at best. For example, that rule says I can keep my 10 inch plecostomus in a 20 gallon high tank and be hunky-dory. He'd barely have room to turn around in that, let alone swim.
A tank's stock level should take into consideration a fish's size, aggression level, need for territory and type of territory (bottom, middle, high), schooling type, how much waste a fish produces (goldfish poop A LOT more than many fish of similar size for example), live plants included in the tank, filtration system, temperature ranges, compatibility between fish (example, cichlids - I could keep several cichlids and other various fish in a tank comfortably as far as all the other items go, but cichlids are only compatible with cichlids and only of their own origin - African vs. South American), and a host of other things.
There's no perfect way to assess your tank's capacity, but the most comprehensive tool I've found is AqAdvisor, which was created by a user on a fish forum I used to frequent. It allows you to play with stock options, provides alerts for special needs fish, and gives an estimated stock level and recommended water changing schedule.
Here is an example setup with your tank (assuming 20 long).
Quote:
found the 3 or more rule
Another very rough rule. 3 is the bare minimum, and most fish are happier in schools or shoals of 6 or more. 3 is a dangerous number (especially in aggressive species!) because, as you've found, the least aggressive fish gets the crap beat out of them. Speaking of...
Quote:
- Otocinclus Catfish. We've read that they get along well with female betta. They don't get as big as their cousins which is a plus. We also read that they are pretty social and need others to school with so we plan on adding three to the 20 gallon later.
I don't have personal experience with otos, but I do keep corydoras which are similar. The catfish species tend to be either loners or shoalers, and the shoalers would like a school of 6 or more.
I have also kept male bettas in low-aggression community tanks (with cories) with no long-finned, flashy fish (gouramis, guppies, etc) with great success. I also like to try to aggression-test my bettas before I purchase them, and only take a betta that appears healthy, active, and alert, but doesn't flare or react beyond curiosity when placed next to another betta's cup. I don't know if it's a 100% accurate test, but I haven't had any problems so far and my bettas have tended to be pretty chill so I feel like that says something at least.
Quote:
I have read that the female betta need space to establish territories... but other places say I should crowed them so they fight less
Crowding is not good, but putting more fish together spreads out the aggression so that no one fish is the sole target of another fish. It's a balance between allowing enough space for territory and escape, and adding enough fish to keep everyone safe.
As an example, I would say this tank is crowded, but this tank is not necessarily.
Quote:
We were debating on trying flakes but I had always done pellets in the past with betta so I don't know. Ideas, advice?
I've always fed my bettas with flakes, no problems. Sometimes they take a little adjusting to the idea, though, if they were raised on pellets.
Be careful with the bloodworms; too many can cause constipation.
Aivilo,
20 long, most definitely. We figured it was better since they need to surface from time to time and I read the more dominate ones tend to gather near the top which can be a problem for more submissive ones.
As for the Otos I may have put the wrong name. I know it was a smaller of the family and several places online and a fish lover met in person said they preferred company of their own kind. But we aren't ready for them yet so we'll try and get a more clear idea about them before we do.
The aggression test is a good idea. I may try that and see if it works for us in the future. And maybe stay away from anymore Crown Tails in general because they just seem more feisty than the Halfmoons. I kind of want to try a Dragon Scale female and see how it does.
I'll also try out that AqAdvisor thing and show it to my mother. My parents have had a lot of experience with other types of fish, both fresh water and salt. However, female betta are a new experience for us.
I guess we'll try the flakes. If for no other reason than to be sure Nelly gets the nutrition she needs. I wonder if the stores used flakes and maybe that's why Nelly is picky? We don't plan on using the worms often, they are pretty clear everywhere that they're only supposed to be "treats" and not a staple diet. We mainly wanted to see if Nelly would eat it.
Have you ever heard of using Peas when having trouble with constipation in betta? Have you ever tried it? How did it work for you?
I agree with everything Aivlio said, I just wanted to quickly say as far as I know peas and bettas are a no and could cause even more problems. Fasting is better! Also be sure to soak the flakes first if no one told you already.
Have you ever heard of using Peas when having trouble with constipation in betta? Have you ever tried it? How did it work for you?
I've only ever done it with a large comet goldfish. It worked for her, but it would likely be more difficult with a betta due to size. I haven't heard not to try it, but I wouldn't jump to it first thing. The goldfish was out of other options and dying. I literally had to hand-feed her for a while.
Side note, boil it in the microwave and take off the skin if you ever try it for any fish.
I haven't heard to soak the flakes, either, though most of my boys did like to wait until the flakes had sunk a bit before they'd go after them.
I've always fed my bettas with flakes, no problems. Sometimes they take a little adjusting to the idea, though, if they were raised on pellets.
Be careful with the bloodworms; too many can cause constipation.
From what I have researched (and I may be wrong!), typically live and frozen foods actually increase safe fiber content and generally help the digestive tract along the way. It is only dried and particularly freeze dried foods which have shown a distinct link to constipation (particularly freeze dried foods, which are essentially worthless from my research). I have also read that pellets are generally regarded as being safer than flakes, and that flakes themselves (regardless of feeding method, E.G. whether or not the keeper knows to soak them prior to feeding) have a more significant link to the risk of bloat than pellets. That said, if the fish can't eat a pellet she can't eat a pellet! I've seen aquarists recommend a cycling diet of 0 freeze dried, pellets 1-2 times a week (or flake, but the same source was recommending avoiding these), live at least once a week and more often if possible, and frozen varieties for the rest (with at least four different species of prey per week).
Obviously, a live-food based diet of the right organisms should not be lethal to fish, or they definitely would not have made it this far. In theory, a frozen diet of the same variety ought to be nearly just as safe.
And on the topic of sororities, I am definitely in agreement with everyone else! The more cover in the styles they've been discussing, the better! The more ladies (with a safe volume of water), the better!
Forgive me, I'm half asleep but (despite having never owned one; I don't trust myself enough) I saw bettas and I love them beyond reason and couldn't help myself, even if I basically just echo-boxed.
Good luck! :D
Edit: Just confirmed my suspicions that the bloodworms being referred to by Aivilo are probably freeze dried, which makes the cautioning totally logical! Be careful with those indeed, but a few here and there shouldn't hurt, with observation! Also it's worth noting that I never specified the precise extent to which one should cycle through foods and why beyond a bit, so I'll just disclaimer myself here by saying obv. don't just feed frozen bloodworms and call it good, lmao. IIRC pretty high in fat and thus hard on the liver/kidneys (one or both, not sure, Aivilo will probs know right away b/c vet. tech. IIRC). Okay, enough rambling from me.
Aivilo will probs know right away b/c vet. tech. IIRC
lmao. Yes, you are correct. They don't teach you fish in school, though!
Liver, I think, if fish are anything like mammals. Cats can go into liver failure if they stop eating because they start digesting their fat, which they aren't built for. It's called hepatic lipidosis.
Also, yes, I am indeed thinking of the freezedried bloodworms, as those generally specify that they are treats only like Shell mentioned.
I've never had an issue with flakes, but I'm sure there are some bettas out there that would. They tend to be delicate, finicky fish so it would not surprise me.
Cycling food types is probably healthier than feeding any one thing in general, for balance reasons, because unlike with cat/dog foods I'm sure no flake/pellet/whatever is 100% balanced for every species because they mostly just blanket all of them under "fish" and "bottom feeders". I've always maintained my tanks on just flake and algae wafers, and the occasional veggie and rare shrimp/brine shrimp/bloodworm, though. I admit to being a terrible fish mom because if I don't have an automatic feeder running sometimes the poor babies don't eat for a week v.v So they generally get flake, and then when my brain works some goodies on top. I keep a few varieties of tetra (neon, a neon color morph, serpae, pristella), cories, dwarf cichlids, a pleco, and snails, and all seem to be fat and happy little buggars.
God I hate the 1 inch per gallon "rule" that betta people have come up with. They're always so shocked when I show them flourishing "over crowded" tanks. For the record, it's one square inch of fish(compressed and that's a lot of fish) per gallon. Not inch of fish. However, even that will never be accurate. Certain fish are waste machines (plecos) and certain fish create the bare minimum waste (otos). Basically that "rule" was put into place about 15ish years ago to keep dumbasses from buying forty fish for a ten gallon. In reality an tank that is properly managed will run well with any amount of fish. Water hardness, water change schedule, feeding regimen, planted and non planted, and many other factors come into play when stocking and managing a tank. All of this I learned via a mentor who'd learned from various Asian fish companies. Which, if any of you know, the Asians have fish keeping down to an art. There is no other cluster of countries more adept at keeping aquatics. Something you may note though when looking through thier tanks is 1. They are over stocked, and 2. They are typically planted or bare bottom. Why? Plants help with managing waste and bare bottom tanks are easy to clean. Filtration should -always- be over rated. So a ten gallon tank should have a twenty gallon+ filter on it.
Now with bettas, I've kept various other fish alongside them and within the same tank. Ranging from otos and corys to tetras of various sorts. Males, females, sororities with other fish and they've all be fine. Now shrimp?? If they are fancy shrimp, say bye bye $10 shrimp friend. I do not and will never recommend shrimp with bettas. Snails too, they'll pick at and eat them to an inch of thier life.
There are a few other things I want to touch on, but I was in a planning break and no I have to go wrangle middle schoolers so I'll be back once I'm home.
Also never take fish keeping advice from bettakeepers. By god they are the worst when it comes to making up this and that about fish keeping and how it "needs" to be done. In the past ten years so many things have changed and I've honestly only seen the poor fish develop issues like fin biting and short lifespans.
First off, thank you everyone for the advice and suggestions! We have been considering and weighing all information we've collected including what was advised here.
One thing about live food. While I normally prefer live food, in fact we feed my parents' balled python live food (who is older than I am!), I am hesitant on feeding the betta live food. Nearly every source I've read has had bad experiences with live food giving their betta internal parasites. I'm sure it has to do with where the food comes from but still I rather not deal with that. Now, there is a possibility we may try raising our own live food in the future, since we've done that for other things in the past, but we'll see how things go. Thanks for the suggestion anyway. <3
Snails too, they'll pick at and eat them to an inch of thier life.
My bettas have always left my ramshorns alone, save for maybe a peck or two when they were first learning the ropes in the tank. It varies from betta to betta. Some won't tolerate anything in 'their' tank and some don't care much. I'm sure it also varies depending on the snail species. Larger snails' eye stalks are probably a more fun target than my pea-sized ramshorns, which are harder to get at.
Quote:
Also never take fish keeping advice from bettakeepers.
I find that I have to keep my salt shaker handy when visiting pretty much any fishkeeping advice column/forum/etc.
Evern, Iaurdagnire, Kaoori,
Thank you very much! Hoping to have pictures of my mother's boys soon. And my newest female that is similar in appearance to Sith! I was ecstatic when I found her. And maybe some pictures of the sorority tank too which is starting to look nice. Live plants. My mother's still working on balancing the water though.
I used an old litter bucket with a snap-on lid, and kept it outside. Since the bird was so small and I got it pretty clean, it didn't even really smell.
Still wear gloves, though, ew.
I have darkling beetles and a colony of Armadillidium vulgare picking apart a juvenile ball python skeleton at the moment. They seem to be doing a decent job of keeping the delicate bones close together, though I'm not entirely certain on how the overall outcome will be- it's a lot more bones than a wing. Might try it? Tracking this for answers as well. ^^
Yah, I've heard about the beetles. Though, right now I'm about to move and don't think it's a good time to raise some. But keep me updated on how they do with your python? I'd appreciate it! Also, shame about the ball python. They're my favorite snake.
Yeah, I'm glad that hurricane has passed you. I'm seeing it on the news everyday and I cannot even begin to imagine a storm that big.. Glad you are safe and sound though.
I'll never forget Gus. He always stood out a lot to me, and I recall having a lot of fun with you guys in forest, especially during like the first or second rut or something. Miss seeing you round :[ <3
I can relate to this, since I feel the exact same way about one of my oldies. She'll be eight at the end of this year, but I haven't played her actively for three.
Activity here is crucial in a lot of ways. Characters seem to forget and move on quickly, but it's always been that way I think. Always loved Gustiro as a character though! I don't think I could ever forget him personally.
Starling,
I do remember all the fun and Starling during the rut. I believe it was the second or third rut, which I believe was Gustiro's first, because I don't think I was in the very first one. I could be wrong. It was so long ago. *Sobs* But it was such a blast.
Mini,
I know, right? How did those 7 years go by so fast? I still remember around the time Gustiro first met Kheiron with Illrose. They would tease the heck out of Gustiro. lol
Sarkoja,
Joro is not forgotten. <3 Her and Gustiro didn't always get along but she certainly was a part of my experience of him and a few other of my characters.
And yes, characters seem to forget and loose interest so quickly. Perhaps it is because I started roleplaying in a different place, in a different form but I feel that myself and my characters are different in the forgetting and moving on department where The Endless Forest is concerned.
I mean, my memory isn't the best and I remember situations and interactions better than I remember names or even designs (I even had to look up Joro's and Kheiron's names because I remember the characters but I just couldn't remember the names SOB). But a long time friend of a character isn't suddenly forgotten or dismissed because the friend has been absent for a length of time. That history is still there, though dormant the feelings that character had for them still lingers, and if they show again my character isn't just going to ignore them. I just find that concept so confusing for me.
I guess that's another reason why I haven't been so active as I use to be anymore. You spend all that time building relationships and getting attached and than something In Real Life prevents you from being on and than when you return suddenly your character means nothing to their once close relations. As if they never existed. It also makes you wonder if your character even has a right to approach that friend anymore.
Or maybe I'm just crazy and over sentimental. Either way.
Gus - That exactly. My way of dealing with my absences as of three years ago was to just have all of my characters imprint in a sort of way? My memory may not be the best, but my characters definitely don't forget anyone now. If they encounter a relative or a friend after months, they treat the situation as if no time has passed. It's just my way of coping.
That doesn't mean the favor is automatically returned though. I don't really mind if it isn't. It's mostly something I do for myself as reassurance and to feel less guilt. If a character is resentful towards mine due to mine being absent or just poofing, or if my character is removed from relations - then I can't really do anything about it. I also don't mind that, too. Everyone has a different playstyle, and characters have different ways of coping with absence.
Oh my gosh, 7 years already, happy belated birthday Gustiro ♥
Even if he isn't that active anymore he'll always be one of my favorite characters and I'll always remember all the fun interactions I've had with him, thank you for that! ♥
And I'll just add that I too can relate very well with what you guys are saying, I'm feeling the same way with Illrose. Every now and then I'll toss her in for nostalgias sake but she'll usually just end up sitting alone because those she used to know are either gone or have moved on from her :') Perhaps they should all just have an oldie meet-up, rofl.
Sarkoja,
Yes, I agree and understand. Though it still seems kind of OOC when Real Life circumstances are the reason the character is absent to begin with and other players characters treat it as IC. It kind of feels like breaking the fourth wall as it were. But to each their own, right? Sometimes we just got to maneuver around other peoples play styles to keep everything flowing.
Snow,
An oldie meet-up sounds awesome. I really like that idea. ^^<3
I know nothing about fish but
I can't exactly tell from
Step 1. Add a fuck ton more
Step 2. Always have at least 6-8 females. The more the merrier. (I've found that 12 is the magic number)
Step 3. Don't expect the chain of dominance to remain the same forever, these girls are going to constantly challenge each other and though you'll go through 'peaceful times' there will be days where you'll come home to them having shred each other to ribbons.
Step 4. Over feed more often than not and only feed once a day. When you have your girls stuffed and fat they're less likely to fight. This also assures that the more submissive females have a chance to snag some food seeing as if you feed the typical three pellets per fish, the dominant ones just gobble it up and the smaller girls go without.
I've kept sororities for years now and it's a challenge that's for sure. However it is rewarding. Even if they won't live as long as fish kept by themselves.
An example of a well planted tank and happy girls.
Discord:Nazzard#9068 ||Click for bios.
Also, you're right about
In my prior tank it was ruled by a blue crowntail.
OH
Another important thing, have your females in at LEAST a twenty gallon. I've noticed that ten gallon setups fail soooooo quickly. They just don't have enough room to escape each other.
Discord:Nazzard#9068 ||Click for bios.
I've only kept one or two
Bettas are gorgeous. I'd love to see pics if you ever get a chance! And Nazzard your tank is gorgeous.
My last betta (God, I can't remember his actual breed, I want to say dragonscale? Please correct me if I"m wrong) had a ton of personality. He was curious of my other tank ( a ten gallon, I set his tank beside it so he could watch the inhabitants) and would often watch what I was doing. I really miss him.
Ok, didn't expect this many
Current females we have:
Nelly - Teal Crown Tail. (My mother's)
Amaya - Black and Green-ish Halfmoon. (Mine.)
Opel - White with teal fins and teal iridescence Crown Tail.
(I got for my mother BUT I'm tempted to steal this lovely lady.)
Pearl (name may change) - White Halfmoon. (Mine)
The first attempts:
At the VERY beginning we started with just two females (Nelly and Amaya) because I had not read about the "3 or more" rule until after the fact. We started with a 2.5 gallon tank that we planned on upgrading to a 10 gallon tank after my move (which I'll be moving house again in March/April) and adding more females AFTER the upgrade.
After the initial dominance dance things seemed to settle down peacefully with Nelly as the boss fish. However, Nelly became showy again. She would just get up in Amaya's face and basically do the dominance dance but Amaya more or less ignored her and did her fishy things peacefully. Things were like that a while until Nelly started getting nippy and more aggressive to the point I had to remove Amaya. It was during this I was researching more and found the 3 or more rule. So that's when we got Opel. There we tried adding the girls together again.
Opel took to the tank like a champ. She flared at Amaya some but when Amaya didn't reciprocate she pretty much left Amaya alone. Nelly and Opel flared at each other a lot and Opel was the first to get nippy though Nelly was the one to start something, always Nelly. It SEEMED that Nelly became top girl again which ended with both Crown Tails teaming poor, chill Amaya. I promptly removed Amaya for fear they'd kill her... Nelly and Opel were mostly peaceful for a while, Nelly being showing from time to time but Opel standing up to her which made Nelly back off, and I left them together overnight. The next morning they still seemed ok although it seemed that Opel became top fish. I took a shower and when I looked again it seemed Opel beat the crap out of Nelly and continued to harass her so I removed Opel.
We were going to try again with the fourth female, Pearl, hoping that they teamed Amaya because she was the odd one. However, my mother found a 20 gallon tank on sale and decided to start setting her sorority up sooner than anticipated. So we thought it best to just house them all in the 20gal at her house until I can get my 10 gallon properly ready for my girls. We currently have all four females separated in bowls until we have the 20 gallon ready.
Plans for the 20 Gallon:
- Lots of plants. My mother is mostly going to collect some live plants from her other healthy, none betta tanks at her house. Plus she has a large drift wood she will be adding as well.
- Adding shrimp. My mother has some showy shrimp in a 3 gallon that she was wanting to put in a larger tank. We've read shrimp are ok and even good to add with the females.
- Otocinclus Catfish. We've read that they get along well with female betta. They don't get as big as their cousins which is a plus. We also read that they are pretty social and need others to school with so we plan on adding three to the 20 gallon later.
Plans for the 10 Gallon:
I originally read that 10 Gallon was good for sororities. But now I'm reading more and more from you all and other sources that it might not be good enough. Which is disappointing since I had not wanted to go any bigger than a 10 gallon while I am still in college. I guess I may just have to keep my girls with my mother's for now.
Questions:
I read that more is better. But at the same time I keep reading that there should only be one fish per 2 gallons of water. In a 20 gallon tank that will have 3 Oto' catfish and maybe a couple of shrimp... how many female betta should we have?
I have read that the female betta need space to establish territories... but other places say I should crowed them so they fight less... I am reading a lot of contradictory things. We really want to do this right.
Nazzard, you're saying at least 6-8. For a 20 gallon, wouldn't 12 be too many? Have you ever had shrimp/Oto (or any other fish) in your sororities?
How big is your tank? How many fish? How often do you clean your tank?
Feeding-
I feed my boys a pellet food. I have been feeding the females the same pellet food but they seem to have trouble swallowing it. (Too hard/big for them?) They get it down but I don't know if it can become an issue. I've tried soaking before putting it in but it sinks too quickly and they don't seem to be interested once the food hits the bottom. Prissy ladies don't want to eat off the floor. : P
Plus Nelly seems to stick her nose up at pellet food for this reason maybe? First time I fed her she snapped it up quickly but than spat it out. Ever since then she gives pellet food a dirty look than turns her nose up at it. She seems healthy and very lively so I don't think she's sick. I tried fasting her first because I figured maybe she was over fed from the store. When that didn't work my mother got some worm treats. She ate that just fine. Spoiled brat. We were debating on trying flakes but I had always done pellets in the past with betta so I don't know. Ideas, advice?
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Other fish are so much easier. lol
Sorry if everything seems ramblely and choppy. I tried to organize it where it'd be easy to read and skip anything you didn't want to read. But it has been a busy day and my brain is in dead tired zone.
Oh, and for anyone interested. We found some information that says the "breeding stripes" can also be aggression stripes. So that answers that question.
And Kaoori, Dragon Scales are a thing. One of my two males is a Dragon Scale. Very flashy boy. :3
Hope I answered everything, everyone! Sorry if I missed anything!
Quote:Plans for the 20
20 long or 20 high?
Edit: Oh geeze, I thought this was the 1 inch per gallon rule, but I see it's even worse haha. In that case, I can keep 10 plecos in a 20 high! Geeze. They'd be dead in a week.
Original: That's a lousy rule, and should be a rough estimate at best. For example, that rule says I can keep my 10 inch plecostomus in a 20 gallon high tank and be hunky-dory. He'd barely have room to turn around in that, let alone swim.
A tank's stock level should take into consideration a fish's size, aggression level, need for territory and type of territory (bottom, middle, high), schooling type, how much waste a fish produces (goldfish poop A LOT more than many fish of similar size for example), live plants included in the tank, filtration system, temperature ranges, compatibility between fish (example, cichlids - I could keep several cichlids and other various fish in a tank comfortably as far as all the other items go, but cichlids are only compatible with cichlids and only of their own origin - African vs. South American), and a host of other things.
There's no perfect way to assess your tank's capacity, but the most comprehensive tool I've found is AqAdvisor, which was created by a user on a fish forum I used to frequent. It allows you to play with stock options, provides alerts for special needs fish, and gives an estimated stock level and recommended water changing schedule.
Here is an example setup with your tank (assuming 20 long).
Another very rough rule. 3 is the bare minimum, and most fish are happier in schools or shoals of 6 or more. 3 is a dangerous number (especially in aggressive species!) because, as you've found, the least aggressive fish gets the crap beat out of them. Speaking of...
I don't have personal experience with otos, but I do keep corydoras which are similar. The catfish species tend to be either loners or shoalers, and the shoalers would like a school of 6 or more.
I have also kept male bettas in low-aggression community tanks (with cories) with no long-finned, flashy fish (gouramis, guppies, etc) with great success. I also like to try to aggression-test my bettas before I purchase them, and only take a betta that appears healthy, active, and alert, but doesn't flare or react beyond curiosity when placed next to another betta's cup. I don't know if it's a 100% accurate test, but I haven't had any problems so far and my bettas have tended to be pretty chill so I feel like that says something at least.
Crowding is not good, but putting more fish together spreads out the aggression so that no one fish is the sole target of another fish. It's a balance between allowing enough space for territory and escape, and adding enough fish to keep everyone safe.
As an example, I would say this tank is crowded, but this tank is not necessarily.
I've always fed my bettas with flakes, no problems. Sometimes they take a little adjusting to the idea, though, if they were raised on pellets.
Be careful with the bloodworms; too many can cause constipation.
Aivilo, 20 long, most
20 long, most definitely. We figured it was better since they need to surface from time to time and I read the more dominate ones tend to gather near the top which can be a problem for more submissive ones.
As for the Otos I may have put the wrong name. I know it was a smaller of the family and several places online and a fish lover met in person said they preferred company of their own kind. But we aren't ready for them yet so we'll try and get a more clear idea about them before we do.
The aggression test is a good idea. I may try that and see if it works for us in the future. And maybe stay away from anymore Crown Tails in general because they just seem more feisty than the Halfmoons. I kind of want to try a Dragon Scale female and see how it does.
I'll also try out that AqAdvisor thing and show it to my mother. My parents have had a lot of experience with other types of fish, both fresh water and salt. However, female betta are a new experience for us.
I guess we'll try the flakes. If for no other reason than to be sure Nelly gets the nutrition she needs. I wonder if the stores used flakes and maybe that's why Nelly is picky? We don't plan on using the worms often, they are pretty clear everywhere that they're only supposed to be "treats" and not a staple diet. We mainly wanted to see if Nelly would eat it.
Have you ever heard of using Peas when having trouble with constipation in betta? Have you ever tried it? How did it work for you?
Ok, I better put myself to bed. Passing out.
I agree with everything
Quote:Have you ever heard of
I've only ever done it with a large comet goldfish. It worked for her, but it would likely be more difficult with a betta due to size. I haven't heard not to try it, but I wouldn't jump to it first thing. The goldfish was out of other options and dying. I literally had to hand-feed her for a while.
Side note, boil it in the microwave and take off the skin if you ever try it for any fish.
I haven't heard to soak the flakes, either, though most of my boys did like to wait until the flakes had sunk a bit before they'd go after them.
Evern, Aivilo, Thank you
Thank you both. <3
Aivilo wrote:I've always fed
From what I have researched (and I may be wrong!), typically live and frozen foods actually increase safe fiber content and generally help the digestive tract along the way. It is only dried and particularly freeze dried foods which have shown a distinct link to constipation (particularly freeze dried foods, which are essentially worthless from my research). I have also read that pellets are generally regarded as being safer than flakes, and that flakes themselves (regardless of feeding method, E.G. whether or not the keeper knows to soak them prior to feeding) have a more significant link to the risk of bloat than pellets. That said, if the fish can't eat a pellet she can't eat a pellet! I've seen aquarists recommend a cycling diet of 0 freeze dried, pellets 1-2 times a week (or flake, but the same source was recommending avoiding these), live at least once a week and more often if possible, and frozen varieties for the rest (with at least four different species of prey per week).
Obviously, a live-food based diet of the right organisms should not be lethal to fish, or they definitely would not have made it this far. In theory, a frozen diet of the same variety ought to be nearly just as safe.
And on the topic of sororities, I am definitely in agreement with everyone else! The more cover in the styles they've been discussing, the better! The more ladies (with a safe volume of water), the better!
Forgive me, I'm half asleep but (despite having never owned one; I don't trust myself enough) I saw bettas and I love them beyond reason and couldn't help myself, even if I basically just echo-boxed.
Good luck! :D
Edit: Just confirmed my suspicions that the bloodworms being referred to by Aivilo are probably freeze dried, which makes the cautioning totally logical! Be careful with those indeed, but a few here and there shouldn't hurt, with observation! Also it's worth noting that I never specified the precise extent to which one should cycle through foods and why beyond a bit, so I'll just disclaimer myself here by saying obv. don't just feed frozen bloodworms and call it good, lmao. IIRC pretty high in fat and thus hard on the liver/kidneys (one or both, not sure, Aivilo will probs know right away b/c vet. tech. IIRC). Okay, enough rambling from me.
Quote:Aivilo will probs know
lmao. Yes, you are correct. They don't teach you fish in school, though!
Liver, I think, if fish are anything like mammals. Cats can go into liver failure if they stop eating because they start digesting their fat, which they aren't built for. It's called hepatic lipidosis.
Also, yes, I am indeed thinking of the freezedried bloodworms, as those generally specify that they are treats only like Shell mentioned.
I've never had an issue with flakes, but I'm sure there are some bettas out there that would. They tend to be delicate, finicky fish so it would not surprise me.
Cycling food types is probably healthier than feeding any one thing in general, for balance reasons, because unlike with cat/dog foods I'm sure no flake/pellet/whatever is 100% balanced for every species because they mostly just blanket all of them under "fish" and "bottom feeders". I've always maintained my tanks on just flake and algae wafers, and the occasional veggie and rare shrimp/brine shrimp/bloodworm, though. I admit to being a terrible fish mom because if I don't have an automatic feeder running sometimes the poor babies don't eat for a week v.v So they generally get flake, and then when my brain works some goodies on top. I keep a few varieties of tetra (neon, a neon color morph, serpae, pristella), cories, dwarf cichlids, a pleco, and snails, and all seem to be fat and happy little buggars.
God I hate the 1 inch per
Now with bettas, I've kept various other fish alongside them and within the same tank. Ranging from otos and corys to tetras of various sorts. Males, females, sororities with other fish and they've all be fine. Now shrimp?? If they are fancy shrimp, say bye bye $10 shrimp friend. I do not and will never recommend shrimp with bettas. Snails too, they'll pick at and eat them to an inch of thier life.
There are a few other things I want to touch on, but I was in a planning break and no I have to go wrangle middle schoolers so I'll be back once I'm home.
Discord:Nazzard#9068 ||Click for bios.
Also never take fish keeping
Discord:Nazzard#9068 ||Click for bios.
First off, thank you everyone
One thing about live food. While I normally prefer live food, in fact we feed my parents' balled python live food (who is older than I am!), I am hesitant on feeding the betta live food. Nearly every source I've read has had bad experiences with live food giving their betta internal parasites. I'm sure it has to do with where the food comes from but still I rather not deal with that. Now, there is a possibility we may try raising our own live food in the future, since we've done that for other things in the past, but we'll see how things go. Thanks for the suggestion anyway. <3
Quote: Snails too, they'll
My bettas have always left my ramshorns alone, save for maybe a peck or two when they were first learning the ropes in the tank. It varies from betta to betta. Some won't tolerate anything in 'their' tank and some don't care much. I'm sure it also varies depending on the snail species. Larger snails' eye stalks are probably a more fun target than my pea-sized ramshorns, which are harder to get at.
I find that I have to keep my salt shaker handy when visiting pretty much any fishkeeping advice column/forum/etc.
Oooh my those bettas are
Sith is beautiful! Never had
your bettas are gorgeous!
Evern, Iaurdagnire,
Thank you very much! Hoping to have pictures of my mother's boys soon. And my newest female that is similar in appearance to Sith! I was ecstatic when I found her. And maybe some pictures of the sorority tank too which is starting to look nice. Live plants. My mother's still working on balancing the water though.
oohoohoohiknowiknow I
oohoohoohiknowiknow
I actually used the method here for a wren, and it worked out lovely:
http://boneshoppe.blogspot.com/2011/08/cleaning-and-re-articulating-small.html
I used an old litter bucket with a snap-on lid, and kept it outside. Since the bird was so small and I got it pretty clean, it didn't even really smell.
Still wear gloves, though, ew.
Thank you, Ivi. I'll read up
I have darkling beetles and a
Yah, I've heard about the
super glad to hear you're
Thanks Kaoori
Yeah, I'm glad that hurricane
OMG 8'DD I already got
I'll hang out with Gusgus
My characters don't know a lot of new faces either.. but we're always down to hanging out.
Kaoori
I'll never forget Gus. He
Can't believe that was 7
I can relate to this, since I
Activity here is crucial in a lot of ways. Characters seem to forget and move on quickly, but it's always been that way I think. Always loved Gustiro as a character though! I don't think I could ever forget him personally.
Starling, I do remember all
I do remember all the fun and Starling during the rut. I believe it was the second or third rut, which I believe was Gustiro's first, because I don't think I was in the very first one. I could be wrong. It was so long ago. *Sobs* But it was such a blast.
Mini,
I know, right? How did those 7 years go by so fast? I still remember around the time Gustiro first met Kheiron with Illrose. They would tease the heck out of Gustiro. lol
Sarkoja,
Joro is not forgotten. <3 Her and Gustiro didn't always get along but she certainly was a part of my experience of him and a few other of my characters.
And yes, characters seem to forget and loose interest so quickly. Perhaps it is because I started roleplaying in a different place, in a different form but I feel that myself and my characters are different in the forgetting and moving on department where The Endless Forest is concerned.
I mean, my memory isn't the best and I remember situations and interactions better than I remember names or even designs (I even had to look up Joro's and Kheiron's names because I remember the characters but I just couldn't remember the names SOB). But a long time friend of a character isn't suddenly forgotten or dismissed because the friend has been absent for a length of time. That history is still there, though dormant the feelings that character had for them still lingers, and if they show again my character isn't just going to ignore them. I just find that concept so confusing for me.
I guess that's another reason why I haven't been so active as I use to be anymore. You spend all that time building relationships and getting attached and than something In Real Life prevents you from being on and than when you return suddenly your character means nothing to their once close relations. As if they never existed. It also makes you wonder if your character even has a right to approach that friend anymore.
Or maybe I'm just crazy and over sentimental. Either way.
Kao hasn't forgotten him
I know the feeling though, a lot of my characters are like that. They never forget anyone.
A lot of her problem is many of her friends have simply left the forest and she knows next to no one. I do know what you mean though.
Kaoori, I still need my other
I still need my other characters to get acquainted with Kaoori. They'd be more useful and present. XD
Gus - That exactly. My way of
That doesn't mean the favor is automatically returned though. I don't really mind if it isn't. It's mostly something I do for myself as reassurance and to feel less guilt. If a character is resentful towards mine due to mine being absent or just poofing, or if my character is removed from relations - then I can't really do anything about it. I also don't mind that, too. Everyone has a different playstyle, and characters have different ways of coping with absence.
Oh my gosh, 7 years already,
Even if he isn't that active anymore he'll always be one of my favorite characters and I'll always remember all the fun interactions I've had with him, thank you for that! ♥
And I'll just add that I too can relate very well with what you guys are saying, I'm feeling the same way with Illrose. Every now and then I'll toss her in for nostalgias sake but she'll usually just end up sitting alone because those she used to know are either gone or have moved on from her :') Perhaps they should all just have an oldie meet-up, rofl.
Sarkoja, Yes, I agree and
Yes, I agree and understand. Though it still seems kind of OOC when Real Life circumstances are the reason the character is absent to begin with and other players characters treat it as IC. It kind of feels like breaking the fourth wall as it were. But to each their own, right? Sometimes we just got to maneuver around other peoples play styles to keep everything flowing.
Snow,
An oldie meet-up sounds awesome. I really like that idea. ^^<3