Omg Heart. That was one of my favourite drawings you ever did, HOW COULD YOU. /walks out, slams door
That is genuinely one of my favourites though I love it a lot.
CagedMoon
Consider yourself lucky then, since I'm not here often enough, and a lot of things go over my head. At this point, I doubt you're the one who posted a similar topic almost a year to two years ago about this; doesn't seem like the same person, and in retrospect, that person used their actual account to do it. Not going to go through the effort to find out who you are though, I'm not that much of a dick.
Think what you want, but, again, do keep in mind that someone can study refs to the point where when they draw something - even if they're not looking at it constantly - it can appear traced. I can dig up the art that I did (that I mentioned in my post) as an example if you need it.
And again also, I personally don't find tracing photographs to be that big of a deal. I personally may be apprehensive about doing it, but I'm not going to hate someone else for doing it. I just...don't care. At all.
I'll probably stop posting here unless something comes up and I feel the need to respond. Will be a while though, 2am and I have work at 9am. Night.
Butts in where I don't belong in an effort to look like a cool kid.
Offers my unwanted opinion on the topic.
Unlike Heartstring/Beloved, I'm way too lazy to go collect all of my drawings and the references I used for them. I will just say that, if my drawings were overlaid onto the references I used, quite a lot of them would match up (and where they didn't, it would be because I either 1, messed up while drawing and didn't pay enough attention to the reference, or 2, referenced a different image for the different portion to achieve my desired end result). I keep my references in my canvas and draw while directly looking at them (because I'm noobtier and can't freehand anything even vaguely anatomically accurately to save my life--if I could, I'd never stop drawing because that is some God-tier talent imo). I think it's a bit cheap of me to do, but it's not tracing; it's heavy referencing.
My opinion on the topic is that it's pretty much shrug-tier. If someone wanted to make it totally okay legally, they could find exclusively stock images which state somewhere that artists are free to reference them in drawings as much as they'd like. However, I myself have drawn from several photographs I've found on Google without ever glimpsing their source. I'm drawing from, in my opinion, an image captured from reality. I'd draw from the actual animal in front of me if I could, but they're kind of hard to find and don't stay still very well. >u>
Anyway, I think calling just one person out of this is kind of silly. If one were to take issue with people heavily referencing, I believe the best way to take care of that would be to contact every offender privately to discuss the matter. From my knowledge, I believe it's entirely legal. As for making a moral standpoint on the subject, morals are fluid between individuals, and I believe such a thing would just degrade into bickering. Ultimately, I can't see a problem with this degree of referencing, but maybe that's just my viewpoint. Is there anyone who has some information who might sway my opinion? If I'm wrong, I'd like to be corrected. I just want to do what's right, really. Anyway, if anyone takes issue with me doing what I specified in this long-winded reply to something I really have no right butting into, and would prefer not to be seen in a negative light, I can be privately contacted at: ILikeStuffAndYeah@yahoo.com
My email is quality and mature. I am an adult. -Gets shot with a nerf gun.-
Kiopeza, you have been the light of this conversation with the animals and gross mis-classification of them. I only wish to become as free-spirited and carefree as you. I think you're one of the only ones I've ever seen post on an alt who could come off the alt and only be loved for what you posted while on the alt. (Help, I've lost my ability to type in proper English grammar!)
Mjrn, I hope you sleep well.
P.S. sorry for bumping the thread after things cooled down. ): But I'm not sorry enough to not post my wall-of-text. <_<
Edit: Everyone have fun, I am going with Heartstring and my fiancé to IHOP and then to go grocery shopping. Play nice, friends--there's no reason to be mean to anybody, I don't think. o:
Uuurgk. Of course I’m mentioned so I have to chime in. Well then. Also, my name is Mis. Honestly, you have to dig through my profile to find it used to be Misako a long time ago. My stream name is even MisMantis o_x
Let’s first stay on the initial topic. Sighthoundlady being accussed of tracing. With two images as an example. First image:
I see you tried your best to line it up. Pretty good even! But I’m wondering why Sight would add mistakes afterwards. She clearly missed that belly, deer don’t really lift their head like that according to the reference, the legs don’t line up, did she turn the tail a little afterwards to make it look different?
The second photo though. I don’t think I even need to show how badly that lines up. The original photo is also so blurry it’s really only useful as a pose reference. The anatomy would’ve been picked from various other photos. I wouldn’t recommend using blurry photos really.
It’s really easy to line up references like this. I see some people already chimed in on that. Let’s see if I can too!
This is actually really traced, but as you can see I added some things that are personal to Verve. Antlers further apart, bigger front tines. The left one was also traced sloppily. I usually trace her antlers because fallow deer antlers are crazy. I start by trying myself and failing, so a photo it is.
I mentioned this to someone a few days ago when they had trouble drawing a human face. For Verve, I have a ‘face reference’. Her name is Ajuma Nasenyana and I often trace her photos. Literally. Why? Because I have a hard time telling from a photo how face structure works. It’s easier for me to see with just lines. Try tracing a face though. It looks weird as heck. So I don’t use those traces, but it helps me warm up and understand a face. They’re kind of an extra reference at time.
I was going to get more face things like this but I’m sure people get the point. Referencing and tracing are tools. I mentioned “the industry” somewhere vaguely before, and I mean that. A classmate of mine who now works for a big, and I mean big gaming company, explained to me how these people design their, for example, guns. They literally go on the internet, get whatever photos they can get, and mash them together. Same goes for objects in games. Then they get painted over. That’s right, traced! And these people get paid to do that. Those things end up in a game people pay 50 dollar for.
Oh! Yes it was mentioned I traced on stream. I did. Why would I do that on a stream if I thought it was bad? Also you should’ve screenshotted it because now I have to go search.
Okay I think this is the one you mean:
Since that’s the last time I streamed and remember tracing. I traced these from three photos of deer heads, with a blue line. Then I painted them over lineless, and very messy because it’s a background element. Didn’t want it to distract. Why would I trace some simple heads instead of drawing them out? Because why not? The tools are there. These are traced from stock photos. I don’t always have the patience to reference something in detail.
Oh yes, all the skulls Verve paints? They’re all traced from photos too! Because it’s not about the skull, but about what happens with it. And a messily drawn skull as a base distracts from that. I’ve mentioned this before on a topic I’m sure.
But it mainly looks like you’re using me as proof. “Sighthoundlady is tracing! You can all say she’s not but I saw Misako(really) do it on stream too! So she must be!” ??... I’m not Sight. Because I’m her friend that doesn’t mean we use the same techniques. If anything I’d like you to go make a topic about how I trace because I genuinely do it. And you got quite a bit of evidende above here. Sure I’ve traced photos before too, like, legs and stuff. You genuinely think that’s something to be ashamed of? That I can’t draw on my own?
The idea that references are bad is so, so sad. I’ve seen people pronounce proudly on a drawing “I did this without reference!” And all I can mutter is yeah, I can see that. Do you think all the professionals never get a photo, put some lines over it to see how things work? If anything, this topic is a great example of how people should work! Want to draw as good as Sight? Use references!! Always! Always check on yourself! No mind is perfect! Of course not all non-referenced drawings are bad, pft, that’d be something. But it’s also not more skillful. If anything it’s a skill to understand a photo, to make something your own.
I have been to art school. I have a diploma I can photograph for you. Not that this makes me any more legit, but it might be an idea to stop thinking inside the bad-box. The bad-box contains art made by other people, that’s something you shouldn’t reference/trace from. Why? Because they’ve referenced from something before you. And made mistakes accordingly. You referencing from them again makes you make those mistakes as well. And of course it’s also a little rude. I personally don’t believe a running pose or something can be copyrighted but if you heavily use anothers art as reference instead of going “wow this is a cool pose I should google if I can find some reference photos in a similar fashion” you might want to ask/mention the artist. Courtesy.
I’m sorry you feel so angry about people liking Sight’s work. Or mine I guess….??? Sorry if your dreams were crushed by figuring out I trace, and Sight doesn’t. That we’re not the same person and all that. (Oh and maybe Sight does trace! Does that make her less of a good artist? Nooooo?) You should join my stream again next time! I’ll show you how I work with my references if you want. How I study photos. You can also use screenshots to enlighten other people in your spare time.
Oh, also, I’ve been on Sights streams plenty of times before she had the lineart done. I’m sorry you haven’t been to all. She often doesn’t start a stream until she thinks the art is actually going somewhere/is going to be finished. Often I don’t do either because I fear I’ll stop in 5 minutes if I don’t end up liking it. If you’re suspicious of that, I’m sorry, but you might need to check yourself first.
Aren’t you just.. Jealous honestly? That’s really what this sounds like. Oh no, this so called “populair” person is liked! I NEED TO STOP THIS. I’m sorry if you’ve had a bad experience somewhere. Really am. But don’t try to push it on other people.
Anyway, moral of the story; Reference if you want your art to improve. It’s good! Don’t think it’s a bad thing to do! Every artist does it! There’s not ever going to be a better teacher than real life. Tracing's okay if you're a little shot too (I typed shit first sorry)
Sorry for the ramble, might've gone all over the place. Sorry to bump this up too! It was already kind of up though and I was mentioned.
Also, uhm, I'm pretty sure plenty of other people use references/trace. The only times people have been called out is when they used another person's art. I have otherwise never seen that beastly image of this community jumping on less known artists to smite them for using a photo? And I've been here for waaay too long now o_x
Why did you bring this up "Secret Account" Person !??
Damn ....Are you jealous or something because your Art does not get any comments or what ??
You better delete this .
Some of this argument was humourous while other parts were just beating a dead horse. (Deer?)
The main point is: Everybody else is ok with this, besides this somewhat "elitist" artist who thinks tracing is cheating or something. But that's not what art is about. The artist did take something and make it something else. That's how inspiration works.
I love you guys, but I didn't realize how crazy things can get here.
I hope this will go away like a child's anxiety over parents fighting.
*hugs TEFc*
Do all great artists not have the skill to reference from life? Isn't that why they are actually *good*? I am almost positive that it is how 98% of artists draw: From life references. The other 2% are just starting out.
Before you go critiquing someone on their work, please do take the time to learn the difference between proper referencing and copying another's work. I know quite a bit of my high school and college art classes had me graded on how close I came to my reference, which I was also required to use. It doesn't fall into any copyright or intellectual property infringement to use a reference that is put up for your use. When it falls into infringement is when you are copying another person's artwork or copyrighted photographs directly. I see neither here. What I see here is proper referencing by a good artist who knows her stuff.
Also, hiding behind a secret account is not going to save you any face, especially when people probably have an idea of who you really are. This is lying, and lying doesn't make you any friends. Is that what you want out of this anyway? To slander the people who you use as a scapegoat to excuse your own actions in an attempt to get back at them so you feel good? It's only going to make you feel worse because you didn't get what you thought you would. I hate to break this to you: Hurting others is not going to make you happy. I do hope you figure that out someday so that you can be happy.
I agree with all the replies here. Deer anatomy is hard to do (you should see mine. It looks like a 3-year-old drew them). While these look like edited traces, I still see nothing wrong with it. she made it her own by her techniques and coloring. People get different products when the same lines are traced. Each one different. Same pose maybe. But still their own. I dare anyone to try to find an accurate drawing on here that wasn't referenced or traced. As far as I know, the one in my sig was a heavy reference as well to a photo of a deer.
Nothing wrong here. Delete this. And stop E-mailing people about this as well. Calida told me of your E-mail about this. I'm disappointed in you, and if I find out who you are, I can assure you we won't be friends. This is disgusting and only causing stress. Not solving anything.
Grow up a little. Just because someone has a lot of friends and has been a staple of the community for a serious time doesn't mean they are a bad person. Look through Sight's streams, there's a ton where she's making something for someone else because she wants to. She's a good person. Christ, Mis has a whole character that makes stuff for others.
Stop with the petty jealousy. Just get over it. If you want to be accepted in a community like this one, massively shit-talking someone who is respected by the vast majority is NOT the way to go.
I've been here for like a week and that's already clear to me.
If this was about tracing, why did you only target two very well known (and well liked) people?
This is a very accepting, open group of people when it comes to art. You could post the shittiest drawing on the planet and someone would still compliment you on it.
And because tracing makes you"bad": How are you supposed to be familiar with the lines and the way the muscles flow by just staring at a picture? How, pray tell, can you become an expert at something by making the same mistakes again and again because you don't interact with the real thing? Not many people have pet deer in their back yard they can grab onto and study the ligaments, so photos are used.
Sight clearly has a very thorough understanding of anatomy. And using two pictures sloppily pasted over photos isn't proving a point, other than you being a petty whiner.
/rant
Not going to share my opinion on whether those drawings were traced or not, but I do not think calling people out is such a good idea, possibly. It does tend to cause drama!
I use references. I even trace over photos sometimes when something as simple as a plain side pose is too hard for me. A hoof ancle from here, an antler anckle from there. Gonna jump on me now too and chew it publicly?
This blog was a very bad idea from the beginning, and you only made yourself a fool with it. Congratulations.
I feel pretty bad about this and it's made me worry. I used photo references to get the body's right on a few of my drawings as I'm only relearning to draw again after years of inactivity. I don't understand why your so upset by this... it's not like they have traced over someone else's work of art/drawing and slap a new colour on it and calmed it as there own.
But this could just be me... have I done wrong buy using a reference photograph?
(Honest question I don't want to step on any toes here, though I do feel like I've done nothing wrong by using them.)
I've had trouble drawing facial structures too xD never traced though. I found a funner method that works out alright. It's called face mapping. You start with the basic structure of the face, an oval, and well… here's an example.
You draw the basic features like the shape of the head, ears, and mouth. You also use lines to determine the distance between facial features such as the jaw detail and lip detail. You also use basic shaping to draw the face. I usually just run things off of my memory.
There's a difference between referencing and tracing. Truthfully, it's disappointing that so many people agree that tracing is okay. I'm sure we've all been there and done it, but in the end that doesn't make it okay. Whether or not Sight traced is beyond the point now.
Honestly, this is the first community I've been on that seems to be backing it up. Sort of disappointing, but that's TEF for you, lol.
Sorry for starting this back up again [if I do] and I'm just going to say right now that I do not wish to get jumped for my opinion, so please refrain from doing so okay
oh and I will edit this if anyone finds it offensive? I'm trying not to be okay here we gooOO
What I'm seeing here, after reading most of what has been said, I'm getting that tracing is okay (or heavily referencing) as long as it's not from someone else's artwork? From what I thought, photography is artwork? Isn't it? So therefor you're still heavily referencing/copying/whatever??
I'm just very, very confused on what is trying to be said, so don't think I'm trying to start anything because I'm not, and I'll be happy to discuss things privately if it comes down to that and yeah~
Sighthoundlady is an incredible artist. There's a difference between referencing and tracing. Regardless of whether or not you think Sighthoundlady traces, posting a public thread to attack her is fucking low.
Don't know what the motivation behind this was, CagedMoon, but I think you've only succeeded in making a giant fool of yourself.
I'm getting that tracing is okay (or heavily referencing) as long as it's not from someone else's artwork? From what I thought, photography is artwork? Isn't it? So therefor you're still heavily referencing/copying/whatever??
From Shadowfly.
Very true.
Referencing is one thing, we all do it, some more than others. But to hear that so many people are so willing to just line directly over something that does still count as artwork is really gross to me.
That being said I don't think directly attacking someone ever gets you anywhere, it's uncalled for and just starts shit, makes people upset, does nothing, so. Mainly my big thing here is that people are tracing and claiming it's fine- take a look into that a little better, please. It's just sad. Tracing is not referencing. It's plagiarism in the form of art.
Cloudandis:
Haha no worries I do that as well! Don’t think now that I sit here tracing all my faces, I had to line up those examples too from my references ;x But sometimes a nose is an evil thing and needs to be put down before I sit on it for an hour. Simple facts of life. A face traced entirely looks really weird to me, and very lifeless.
I also think, back on topic, tracing/heavily referencing being okay depends on an opinion. Different communities have different opinions about it. Opinions are going to differ, that’s fine, they make for good discussions. But there’s no reason to attack anyone for having a different opinion than yours. I will repeat though, referencing is –ABSOLUTELY- fine. Like Apoidea said, not everyone has a real life deer in their backyard. Hell I live in Europe I’m happy to see a rabbit. So that’s why artists look at photography. Which yes, is art, and a reflection of real life. The art in the photo is if you ask me more in the proper use of light for example, things like shutter speed and blur and other technical terms I can’t really come up with right now. Those are what makes the photo’s, not the pose of a deer.
There's a difference between referencing and tracing. Truthfully, it's disappointing that so many people agree that tracing is okay.
...
Honestly, this is the first community I've been on that seems to be backing it up. Sort of disappointing, but that's TEF for you, lol.
Shadowfly wrote:
What I'm seeing here, after reading most of what has been said, I'm getting that tracing is okay (or heavily referencing) as long as it's not from someone else's artwork? From what I thought, photography is artwork? Isn't it? So therefor you're still heavily referencing/copying/whatever??
I'm just very, very confused on what is trying to be said, so don't think I'm trying to start anything because I'm not, and I'll be happy to discuss things privately if it comes down to that and yeah~
I believe a majority of the posts are actually stating tracing over an image to help with your referencing is okay, NOT that tracing an image and then using the exactly traced outline for the rest of the piece is (though it may differ with properly credited stock images which are made available for free use).
In example, the picture I posted earlier. I traced over the references several different times to help me see the outlines of muscles and where things should curve, and where general 'bulks' were, but those outlines never moved off the reference and onto the piece. I may have even resized my sketch and put it on top at some point to see how far off I was/where I needed to correct things. However, the final piece was freehanded, in the end, even if the final result can be overlayed on the references with a lot of accuracy (as you can see, the references are maybe 1/5th the size of the actual drawing... kinda hard to trace something that much smaller and then make it big without losing resolution/detail).
Agreed. I understand that you don't trace it in its entirety or trace much even if you do xD your referencing is quite lovely however.
TO be honest, I tried tracing a photo of myself one time. After I deleted the background, the line art looked fucking creepy. euuugh…. never did that again.
This topic is really like many others, a double edged sword. On one hand you have people who believe it's alright and don't care, and on one hand you have people who absolutely berate the idea. I'm more in-between about it, like some of you. Tracing an image in its entirety or making it obvious that you traced it isn't alright with me, because it just feels… wrong. I mean, that is practically stealing. However, tracing to get a certain shape right or for practice is alright in my mind. As is referencing. I've only tried referencing once ((you have the pictures side by side and attempt to draw thing similarly)) and it works a little better than simply going off of my memory. Yet when I was very little, I used to trace all the cartoon characters on our work sheets. Heck, we were even taught to trace by holding an image up to a lighted window in preschool- we were basically taught to copyright images. But I started to feel guilty because I HADN'T drawn that on my own. I hadn't used my own hands to make it- no, I'd gone over what someone else made. So I stopped tracing and began free handing in preschool.
It depends on your opinions, your values, and the community's values. As much as I might dislike saying it, the laws of a group or society heavily influence someone's opinion after a while. If you've been brought up to think murder is wrong, then you think it's wrong. if you're brought up to think that murder is nothing to be ashamed of, you may end up killing people and wondering why others are so scared of it. ANd although not to the same extreme, if you are brought up to know that tracing is right, you will think it's right. If you are brought up to think it's wrong, you will think it's wrong.
Personal opinions of course, are shaped over time. And sure, your values may change, but you might still have that feeling of right or wrong encrypted into your memory.
I really don't like doing the 'yes the above post' thing but Aivilo really wrote that down better than me. That's what I mean, yes! You get a feel for it! There are of course times where, as I mentioned, I take a nose from a photo or possibly a hoof in an odd position. But I'm not here to defend myself ;x I'm completely alright with the evil tracing of the vague heads in the backgrounds I did on a stream. I wouldn't stream it otherwise.
I think we've been talked into things being bad too much in our lives, whilst art comes in many shapes and forms.
What's gross and disappointing to me are people who say "this is/isn't how art should be done." Everybody's methods are different, and most of us have heavily referenced something at some point. As long as you can make it your own, which Sight does, it is art. Deal.
While I am in agreement that tracing should not be condoned, that really isn't the issue here. The issue is someone with their panties in a twist decided to hide behind a secret account and slander a respected player for her drawing methods. I don't care if they were traced line for line - that is an entirely different discussion and one best handled in private. But here's the thing, this ISN'T private like it should have been. It has attack implied between every line, not to mention this person included other players who don't have a history of tracing or design-snatching AT ALL. So please, before you wag your finger at the community for supporting tracing, look for the real argument. This was an attack by someone looking to stir the drama pot. That's all there is to it.
While I am in agreement that tracing should not be condoned, that really isn't the issue here. The issue is someone with their panties in a twist decided to hide behind a secret account and slander a respected player for her drawing methods. I don't care if they were traced line for line - that is an entirely different discussion and one best handled in private. But here's the thing, this ISN'T private like it should have been. It has attack implied between every line, not to mention this person included other players who don't have a history of tracing or design-snatching AT ALL.
This is exactly it. It's common knowledge. You don't publicly call someone out. If you have a problem with someone, address them in private.
I don't know what our secret friend CagedMoon was expecting here. Did you think we'd all back you up? I agree with Sham, Pandoras, and Woma, too: no, tracing should never be encouraged. But like Woma said, that's not the problem here. The problem is how you chose to approach this. Regardless of your feelings about Sighthoundlady, guess what? She has feelings too. You publicly humiliated someone. You're an idiot if you think we'd "back you up" for that or applaud this thread.
Lol. THis is now the bird
CHICKEN TIME.
[img][http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/57/Chicken_-_melbourne_show_2005.jpg[img]
Image © Alhnna
Omg Heart. That was one of my
That is genuinely one of my favourites though I love it a lot.CagedMoon
Consider yourself lucky then, since I'm not here often enough, and a lot of things go over my head. At this point, I doubt you're the one who posted a similar topic almost a year to two years ago about this; doesn't seem like the same person, and in retrospect, that person used their actual account to do it. Not going to go through the effort to find out who you are though, I'm not that much of a dick.
Think what you want, but, again, do keep in mind that someone can study refs to the point where when they draw something - even if they're not looking at it constantly - it can appear traced. I can dig up the art that I did (that I mentioned in my post) as an example if you need it.
And again also, I personally don't find tracing photographs to be that big of a deal. I personally may be apprehensive about doing it, but I'm not going to hate someone else for doing it. I just...don't care. At all.
I'll probably stop posting here unless something comes up and I feel the need to respond. Will be a while though, 2am and I have work at 9am. Night.
5 famous copyright
ALLLSOO enjjooyy thiis WHALLE
MJRN BBY COME BACK I CAN
I HAVE A COUPLES COUNSELOR LINED UP AND EVERYTHING
BABY COME BAAACK YOU CAN
YOU CAN BLAME IT ALLL ONNN MEEEE
Image © Alhnna
KIO THAT IS A SHARK ONLY IF
ONLY IF YOU PAY FOR ALL MY EMOTIONAL DAMAGES HEART
okay im seriously leaving now to sleep gOODNIGHT
Nighty night c:
Image © Alhnna
Butts in where I don't belong
Offers my unwanted opinion on the topic.
Unlike Heartstring/Beloved, I'm way too lazy to go collect all of my drawings and the references I used for them. I will just say that, if my drawings were overlaid onto the references I used, quite a lot of them would match up (and where they didn't, it would be because I either 1, messed up while drawing and didn't pay enough attention to the reference, or 2, referenced a different image for the different portion to achieve my desired end result). I keep my references in my canvas and draw while directly looking at them (because I'm noobtier and can't freehand anything even vaguely anatomically accurately to save my life--if I could, I'd never stop drawing because that is some God-tier talent imo). I think it's a bit cheap of me to do, but it's not tracing; it's heavy referencing.
My opinion on the topic is that it's pretty much shrug-tier. If someone wanted to make it totally okay legally, they could find exclusively stock images which state somewhere that artists are free to reference them in drawings as much as they'd like. However, I myself have drawn from several photographs I've found on Google without ever glimpsing their source. I'm drawing from, in my opinion, an image captured from reality. I'd draw from the actual animal in front of me if I could, but they're kind of hard to find and don't stay still very well. >u>
Anyway, I think calling just one person out of this is kind of silly. If one were to take issue with people heavily referencing, I believe the best way to take care of that would be to contact every offender privately to discuss the matter. From my knowledge, I believe it's entirely legal. As for making a moral standpoint on the subject, morals are fluid between individuals, and I believe such a thing would just degrade into bickering. Ultimately, I can't see a problem with this degree of referencing, but maybe that's just my viewpoint. Is there anyone who has some information who might sway my opinion? If I'm wrong, I'd like to be corrected. I just want to do what's right, really. Anyway, if anyone takes issue with me doing what I specified in this long-winded reply to something I really have no right butting into, and would prefer not to be seen in a negative light, I can be privately contacted at: ILikeStuffAndYeah@yahoo.com
My email is quality and mature. I am an adult. -Gets shot with a nerf gun.-
Kiopeza, you have been the light of this conversation with the animals and gross mis-classification of them. I only wish to become as free-spirited and carefree as you. I think you're one of the only ones I've ever seen post on an alt who could come off the alt and only be loved for what you posted while on the alt. (Help, I've lost my ability to type in proper English grammar!)
Mjrn, I hope you sleep well.
P.S. sorry for bumping the thread after things cooled down. ): But I'm not sorry enough to not post my wall-of-text. <_<
Edit: Everyone have fun, I am going with Heartstring and my fiancé to IHOP and then to go grocery shopping. Play nice, friends--there's no reason to be mean to anybody, I don't think. o:
Uuurgk. Of course I’m
Let’s first stay on the initial topic. Sighthoundlady being accussed of tracing. With two images as an example. First image:
I see you tried your best to line it up. Pretty good even! But I’m wondering why Sight would add mistakes afterwards. She clearly missed that belly, deer don’t really lift their head like that according to the reference, the legs don’t line up, did she turn the tail a little afterwards to make it look different?
The second photo though. I don’t think I even need to show how badly that lines up. The original photo is also so blurry it’s really only useful as a pose reference. The anatomy would’ve been picked from various other photos. I wouldn’t recommend using blurry photos really.
It’s really easy to line up references like this. I see some people already chimed in on that. Let’s see if I can too!
This is actually really traced, but as you can see I added some things that are personal to Verve. Antlers further apart, bigger front tines. The left one was also traced sloppily. I usually trace her antlers because fallow deer antlers are crazy. I start by trying myself and failing, so a photo it is.
I mentioned this to someone a few days ago when they had trouble drawing a human face. For Verve, I have a ‘face reference’. Her name is Ajuma Nasenyana and I often trace her photos. Literally. Why? Because I have a hard time telling from a photo how face structure works. It’s easier for me to see with just lines. Try tracing a face though. It looks weird as heck. So I don’t use those traces, but it helps me warm up and understand a face. They’re kind of an extra reference at time.
I was going to get more face things like this but I’m sure people get the point. Referencing and tracing are tools. I mentioned “the industry” somewhere vaguely before, and I mean that. A classmate of mine who now works for a big, and I mean big gaming company, explained to me how these people design their, for example, guns. They literally go on the internet, get whatever photos they can get, and mash them together. Same goes for objects in games. Then they get painted over. That’s right, traced! And these people get paid to do that. Those things end up in a game people pay 50 dollar for.
Oh! Yes it was mentioned I traced on stream. I did. Why would I do that on a stream if I thought it was bad? Also you should’ve screenshotted it because now I have to go search.
Okay I think this is the one you mean:
Since that’s the last time I streamed and remember tracing. I traced these from three photos of deer heads, with a blue line. Then I painted them over lineless, and very messy because it’s a background element. Didn’t want it to distract. Why would I trace some simple heads instead of drawing them out? Because why not? The tools are there. These are traced from stock photos. I don’t always have the patience to reference something in detail.
Oh yes, all the skulls Verve paints? They’re all traced from photos too! Because it’s not about the skull, but about what happens with it. And a messily drawn skull as a base distracts from that. I’ve mentioned this before on a topic I’m sure.
But it mainly looks like you’re using me as proof. “Sighthoundlady is tracing! You can all say she’s not but I saw Misako(really) do it on stream too! So she must be!” ??... I’m not Sight. Because I’m her friend that doesn’t mean we use the same techniques. If anything I’d like you to go make a topic about how I trace because I genuinely do it. And you got quite a bit of evidende above here. Sure I’ve traced photos before too, like, legs and stuff. You genuinely think that’s something to be ashamed of? That I can’t draw on my own?
The idea that references are bad is so, so sad. I’ve seen people pronounce proudly on a drawing “I did this without reference!” And all I can mutter is yeah, I can see that. Do you think all the professionals never get a photo, put some lines over it to see how things work? If anything, this topic is a great example of how people should work! Want to draw as good as Sight? Use references!! Always! Always check on yourself! No mind is perfect! Of course not all non-referenced drawings are bad, pft, that’d be something. But it’s also not more skillful. If anything it’s a skill to understand a photo, to make something your own.
I have been to art school. I have a diploma I can photograph for you. Not that this makes me any more legit, but it might be an idea to stop thinking inside the bad-box. The bad-box contains art made by other people, that’s something you shouldn’t reference/trace from. Why? Because they’ve referenced from something before you. And made mistakes accordingly. You referencing from them again makes you make those mistakes as well. And of course it’s also a little rude. I personally don’t believe a running pose or something can be copyrighted but if you heavily use anothers art as reference instead of going “wow this is a cool pose I should google if I can find some reference photos in a similar fashion” you might want to ask/mention the artist. Courtesy.
I’m sorry you feel so angry about people liking Sight’s work. Or mine I guess….??? Sorry if your dreams were crushed by figuring out I trace, and Sight doesn’t. That we’re not the same person and all that. (Oh and maybe Sight does trace! Does that make her less of a good artist? Nooooo?) You should join my stream again next time! I’ll show you how I work with my references if you want. How I study photos. You can also use screenshots to enlighten other people in your spare time.
Oh, also, I’ve been on Sights streams plenty of times before she had the lineart done. I’m sorry you haven’t been to all. She often doesn’t start a stream until she thinks the art is actually going somewhere/is going to be finished. Often I don’t do either because I fear I’ll stop in 5 minutes if I don’t end up liking it. If you’re suspicious of that, I’m sorry, but you might need to check yourself first.
Aren’t you just.. Jealous honestly? That’s really what this sounds like. Oh no, this so called “populair” person is liked! I NEED TO STOP THIS. I’m sorry if you’ve had a bad experience somewhere. Really am. But don’t try to push it on other people.
Anyway, moral of the story; Reference if you want your art to improve. It’s good! Don’t think it’s a bad thing to do! Every artist does it! There’s not ever going to be a better teacher than real life. Tracing's okay if you're a little shot too
Sorry for the ramble, might've gone all over the place. Sorry to bump this up too! It was already kind of up though and I was mentioned.
Also, uhm, I'm pretty sure plenty of other people use references/trace. The only times people have been called out is when they used another person's art. I have otherwise never seen that beastly image of this community jumping on less known artists to smite them for using a photo? And I've been here for waaay too long now o_x
Why did you bring this up
Damn ....Are you jealous or something because your Art does not get any comments or what ??
You better delete this .
I'm just going to give my
To my untrained eye these do look traced. However I don't see why you couldn't discuss this privately.
*hides under a rock for protection*
Some of this argument was
The main point is: Everybody else is ok with this, besides this somewhat "elitist" artist who thinks tracing is cheating or something. But that's not what art is about. The artist did take something and make it something else. That's how inspiration works.
I love you guys, but I didn't realize how crazy things can get here.
I hope this will go away like a child's anxiety over parents fighting.
*hugs TEFc*
I don't understand this. Do
Do all great artists not have the skill to reference from life? Isn't that why they are actually *good*? I am almost positive that it is how 98% of artists draw: From life references. The other 2% are just starting out.
Before you go critiquing someone on their work, please do take the time to learn the difference between proper referencing and copying another's work. I know quite a bit of my high school and college art classes had me graded on how close I came to my reference, which I was also required to use. It doesn't fall into any copyright or intellectual property infringement to use a reference that is put up for your use. When it falls into infringement is when you are copying another person's artwork or copyrighted photographs directly. I see neither here. What I see here is proper referencing by a good artist who knows her stuff.
Also, hiding behind a secret account is not going to save you any face, especially when people probably have an idea of who you really are. This is lying, and lying doesn't make you any friends. Is that what you want out of this anyway? To slander the people who you use as a scapegoat to excuse your own actions in an attempt to get back at them so you feel good? It's only going to make you feel worse because you didn't get what you thought you would. I hate to break this to you: Hurting others is not going to make you happy. I do hope you figure that out someday so that you can be happy.
I agree with all the replies
Nothing wrong here. Delete this. And stop E-mailing people about this as well. Calida told me of your E-mail about this. I'm disappointed in you, and if I find out who you are, I can assure you we won't be friends. This is disgusting and only causing stress. Not solving anything.
This post reeks of high
Grow up a little. Just because someone has a lot of friends and has been a staple of the community for a serious time doesn't mean they are a bad person. Look through Sight's streams, there's a ton where she's making something for someone else because she wants to. She's a good person. Christ, Mis has a whole character that makes stuff for others.
Stop with the petty jealousy. Just get over it. If you want to be accepted in a community like this one, massively shit-talking someone who is respected by the vast majority is NOT the way to go.
I've been here for like a week and that's already clear to me.
If this was about tracing, why did you only target two very well known (and well liked) people?
This is a very accepting, open group of people when it comes to art. You could post the shittiest drawing on the planet and someone would still compliment you on it.
And because tracing makes you"bad": How are you supposed to be familiar with the lines and the way the muscles flow by just staring at a picture? How, pray tell, can you become an expert at something by making the same mistakes again and again because you don't interact with the real thing? Not many people have pet deer in their back yard they can grab onto and study the ligaments, so photos are used.
Sight clearly has a very thorough understanding of anatomy. And using two pictures sloppily pasted over photos isn't proving a point, other than you being a petty whiner.
/rant
Not going to share my opinion
I don't think less of Sight,
I'm with everyone else. I
I use references. I even trace over photos sometimes when something as simple as a plain side pose is too hard for me. A hoof ancle from here, an antler anckle from there. Gonna jump on me now too and chew it publicly?
This blog was a very bad idea from the beginning, and you only made yourself a fool with it. Congratulations.
I feel pretty bad about this
But this could just be me... have I done wrong buy using a reference photograph?
(Honest question I don't want to step on any toes here, though I do feel like I've done nothing wrong by using them.)
Ren, I think you are fine.
And I agree. Very bad to post this.
Aaaallllrighty then. Who
Who wants pancakes?!
Ohhhhhh. Now I'm hungry.
Got any bacon to go with them?? Maybe some ham?
@Mis: I've had trouble
I've had trouble drawing facial structures too xD never traced though. I found a funner method that works out alright. It's called face mapping. You start with the basic structure of the face, an oval, and well… here's an example.
You draw the basic features like the shape of the head, ears, and mouth. You also use lines to determine the distance between facial features such as the jaw detail and lip detail. You also use basic shaping to draw the face. I usually just run things off of my memory.
<-> might not be helpful but oh well.
Image © Alhnna
Bacon beer ;D !
Bacon beer ;D !
HOLY WHAT.... Gimme.
Gimme.
Isn't that the best invention
There's a difference between
Honestly, this is the first community I've been on that seems to be backing it up. Sort of disappointing, but that's TEF for you, lol.
All I've got to say.
Carry on.
As a vegetarian, yuck! xD
Sorry for starting this back
oh and I will edit this if anyone finds it offensive? I'm trying not to be okay here we gooOO
What I'm seeing here, after reading most of what has been said, I'm getting that tracing is okay (or heavily referencing) as long as it's not from someone else's artwork? From what I thought, photography is artwork? Isn't it? So therefor you're still heavily referencing/copying/whatever??
I'm just very, very confused on what is trying to be said, so don't think I'm trying to start anything because I'm not, and I'll be happy to discuss things privately if it comes down to that and yeah~
Sighthoundlady is an
Don't know what the motivation behind this was, CagedMoon, but I think you've only succeeded in making a giant fool of yourself.
Mmmm that looks so good ; U ;
Also, I do think it /looks/ traced and I don't agree with tracing, however like I've said before take it to PMs people. Public shaming is never okay.
^
Image © Alhnna
What Sham said, and
From Shadowfly.
Very true.
Referencing is one thing, we all do it, some more than others. But to hear that so many people are so willing to just line directly over something that does still count as artwork is really gross to me.
That being said I don't think directly attacking someone ever gets you anywhere, it's uncalled for and just starts shit, makes people upset, does nothing, so. Mainly my big thing here is that people are tracing and claiming it's fine- take a look into that a little better, please. It's just sad. Tracing is not referencing. It's plagiarism in the form of art.
Cloudandis: Haha no worries I
Haha no worries I do that as well! Don’t think now that I sit here tracing all my faces, I had to line up those examples too from my references ;x But sometimes a nose is an evil thing and needs to be put down before I sit on it for an hour. Simple facts of life. A face traced entirely looks really weird to me, and very lifeless.
I also think, back on topic, tracing/heavily referencing being okay depends on an opinion. Different communities have different opinions about it. Opinions are going to differ, that’s fine, they make for good discussions. But there’s no reason to attack anyone for having a different opinion than yours. I will repeat though, referencing is –ABSOLUTELY- fine. Like Apoidea said, not everyone has a real life deer in their backyard. Hell I live in Europe I’m happy to see a rabbit. So that’s why artists look at photography. Which yes, is art, and a reflection of real life. The art in the photo is if you ask me more in the proper use of light for example, things like shutter speed and blur and other technical terms I can’t really come up with right now. Those are what makes the photo’s, not the pose of a deer.
Nirvana wrote:There's a
I believe a majority of the posts are actually stating tracing over an image to help with your referencing is okay, NOT that tracing an image and then using the exactly traced outline for the rest of the piece is (though it may differ with properly credited stock images which are made available for free use).
In example, the picture I posted earlier. I traced over the references several different times to help me see the outlines of muscles and where things should curve, and where general 'bulks' were, but those outlines never moved off the reference and onto the piece. I may have even resized my sketch and put it on top at some point to see how far off I was/where I needed to correct things. However, the final piece was freehanded, in the end, even if the final result can be overlayed on the references with a lot of accuracy (as you can see, the references are maybe 1/5th the size of the actual drawing... kinda hard to trace something that much smaller and then make it big without losing resolution/detail).
Agreed. I understand that you
TO be honest, I tried tracing a photo of myself one time. After I deleted the background, the line art looked fucking creepy. euuugh…. never did that again.
This topic is really like many others, a double edged sword. On one hand you have people who believe it's alright and don't care, and on one hand you have people who absolutely berate the idea. I'm more in-between about it, like some of you. Tracing an image in its entirety or making it obvious that you traced it isn't alright with me, because it just feels… wrong. I mean, that is practically stealing. However, tracing to get a certain shape right or for practice is alright in my mind. As is referencing. I've only tried referencing once ((you have the pictures side by side and attempt to draw thing similarly)) and it works a little better than simply going off of my memory. Yet when I was very little, I used to trace all the cartoon characters on our work sheets. Heck, we were even taught to trace by holding an image up to a lighted window in preschool- we were basically taught to copyright images. But I started to feel guilty because I HADN'T drawn that on my own. I hadn't used my own hands to make it- no, I'd gone over what someone else made. So I stopped tracing and began free handing in preschool.
It depends on your opinions, your values, and the community's values. As much as I might dislike saying it, the laws of a group or society heavily influence someone's opinion after a while. If you've been brought up to think murder is wrong, then you think it's wrong. if you're brought up to think that murder is nothing to be ashamed of, you may end up killing people and wondering why others are so scared of it. ANd although not to the same extreme, if you are brought up to know that tracing is right, you will think it's right. If you are brought up to think it's wrong, you will think it's wrong.
Personal opinions of course, are shaped over time. And sure, your values may change, but you might still have that feeling of right or wrong encrypted into your memory.
Image © Alhnna
I really don't like doing the
I think we've been talked into things being bad too much in our lives, whilst art comes in many shapes and forms.
What's gross and
While I am in agreement that
Quote:While I am in agreement
This is exactly it. It's common knowledge. You don't publicly call someone out. If you have a problem with someone, address them in private.
I don't know what our secret friend CagedMoon was expecting here. Did you think we'd all back you up? I agree with Sham, Pandoras, and Woma, too: no, tracing should never be encouraged. But like Woma said, that's not the problem here. The problem is how you chose to approach this. Regardless of your feelings about Sighthoundlady, guess what? She has feelings too. You publicly humiliated someone. You're an idiot if you think we'd "back you up" for that or applaud this thread.
This was an attack by someone
Yes.
Please stop this drama, please. Let artists do what they wish once it's not stealing.
Have a puppy.
AND THE POINT OF THIS WHOLE
Seems to me somebody here wants to judge what can be called art and what cannot. As if anyone could actually judge that.
Srsly tho look at the togepi in my sig. It's so art.
OH MY GOD I WANT IT SO
FJOIEJFOEJ
Image © Alhnna
I know cloud, I know. :'(
Very disappoint :c
Image © Alhnna
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Image © Alhnna
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Mmm food ~
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Image © Alhnna